A Taste of Windows 7 Details

[RuadRauFlessa]

What would really be cool is if they actually manage to run diffirent threads in an application across diffirent CPU cores. That would rock. It would open up the full use of your kick bottom CPU to single threaded apps and your older games would also pull some advantage from the multiple cores rather than only the multi threaded ones.

[Hex_Rated]

What would really be cool is if they actually manage to run diffirent threads in an application across diffirent CPU cores. That would rock. It would open up the full use of your kick bottom CPU to single threaded apps and your older games would also pull some advantage from the multiple cores rather than only the multi threaded ones.

You mean like reverse hyperthreading (ie the holy grail of multi-core)? I think they'd have to do that at the hardware level, I'm not sure it's possible else it would have already been done.

In the longer term, as I’ve blogged previously, the game plan is to find a way to exorcise Win32 from Windows and replace it with managed code — preferably a set of programming interfaces that are better tailored to handle parallel-processing tasks across many processors.

I don't like that... Maybe it will improve .NET but managed code is much slower than native code. How the hell do they put Win32 in managed code anyway? That would require that they have a VM (CLR) running at the lowest level. It's running an OS on an OS. Managed code FTL when it comes to speed.

[ryanrich]

Windows 7 should be a good blend between Vista and Server 2008, looking forward to this release. First Beta should be available in December and going by MS that means an early 2010 final release.

[RuadRauFlessa]

What would really be cool is if they actually manage to run diffirent threads in an application across diffirent CPU cores. That would rock. It would open up the full use of your kick bottom CPU to single threaded apps and your older games would also pull some advantage from the multiple cores rather than only the multi threaded ones.

You mean like reverse hyperthreading (ie the holy grail of multi-core)? I think they'd have to do that at the hardware level, I'm not sure it's possible else it would have already been done.

I think you might be right about that one. I forgot that for this to work like I envisioned the cache should be shareable between all the CPU cores. Not a seperate isolated set of cache for each core. You could always replicate the cache across all the cores' cache but then you would be wasting valuable cache and it would also be counter productive.

[Hex_Rated]

You're talking about cache coherency.

Cache is already shareable between all cores (L2 on core2duo and L3 on server chips). I think it's more to do with the instruction pipeline or creating a new type of pipeline. Modern CPU cores are superscalar and use out of order execution, in essence what this means is they break down sets of instructions that aren't dependant on the result of another set of instructions and execute them out of order, eg an independant floating point or integer calc or mem move at the same time. This is possible because superscalar means that each CPU core has multiple execution components (ALU, FPU, etc).

They need to implement this at a level higher higher than inside a single CPU core and have some type of universal scheduler for it to work across multiple cores.

But I reckon that relying more on the programmer and compilers to "parallelize" the code is much more effective, reverse hyperthreading is too complex to do, if it is possible to re-order the instructions in such a way that the code can be executed across many cores, it should be possible for a person or a compiler to design the code to be parallel in the first place. This is what is already happening and is a main reason why I'm such a big advocate of multiple cores (although over 8 threads is going to start getting seriously difficult and counter productive, we will start needing faster single thread execution eventually).

[Anakha56]

http://windowssecrets.com/2008/10/02/03 ... new-kernel

Does Vista already have Windows 7's new kernel?

By Stuart J. Johnston

For those waiting for a faster, better-performing version of Windows, you'll have to wait at least nine months for Windows 7.

But if you can't wait, Vista Service Pack 1 may provide a peek into Microsoft's plans to equip Windows 7 with a dramatically smaller, more agile operating-system kernel.

The new kernel is meant to deliver the kind of performance boost that users have been demanding ever since Vista first shipped nearly two years ago. In fact, the new kernel may already be in Vista SP1. (An operating system's kernel is a core piece of the system that manages the computer's resources.)

Unfortunately, Microsoft isn't saying whether Vista's kernel has been updated.

According to an analysis performed by Australian tech publication APC Magazine, Vista's first service pack sports the same kernel as Windows Server 2008: version 6.0.6001. The original release of the Vista kernel was version 6.0.6000, APC said.

Sharing a kernel wouldn't be too much of a stretch, considering that Vista SP1 and Windows Server 2008 were released to manufacturing (RTM) on the same day.

"We are going to build on the success and the strength of the Windows Server 2008 kernel, and that has all of this [kernel] work that you've been talking about," Steven Sinofsky, senior vice president of Windows and Windows Live engineering, told CNET in May.

"The key there is that the kernel in Windows Server 2008 is an evolution of the kernel in Windows Vista, and then Windows 7 will be a further evolution of that kernel as well," Sinofsky added.

Vista SP1 may already have 'MinWin' on board

While Vista SP1 does show some relatively small performance improvements over the original release, that's nothing compared to what Microsoft is hoping to deliver with Windows 7 — that is, if the company follows through on its previous public statements about the OS.

A benchmark test of SP1 done last winter by PC World found small but incremental improvements over Vista RTM in specific areas of performance. For instance, compared to the original release, SP1 was 9% faster on a file-copying test. Meanwhile, results were unchanged from Vista RTM when it came to system startup and shutdown speeds.

Windows 7 — the codename for the next Windows release due by early 2010 — will contain a more evolved version of the kernel, which Microsoft has somewhat confusingly named "MinWin." The company's goal is to dramatically shrink the amount of the code that runs at the heart of the operating system.

"[MinWin] is running in 40MB of memory, a lot less than the 2GB that you're used to" with the original Vista kernel, Microsoft Distinguished Engineer Eric Traut told a group at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign last October.

In his presentation, Traut was adamant that Windows 7 will sport the new, much smaller kernel.

"The core of the system is really streamlined," Traut said.

Since Traut's address, however, Microsoft executives have been less than clear about what MinWin really is. Also, Microsoft pronouncements as to when MinWin will enter the production code base for Windows have been squishy at best.

For instance, last December, Microsoft Technical Fellow Mark Russinovich, who founded Winternals and is a member of the Windows Core Architecture group, told an interviewer on Microsoft's Channel 9 developers' site that the version of MinWin incorporated into Windows Server 2008 is not the same as the MinWin coming in Windows 7.

Making things even murkier, company officials — particularly Sinfosky — decline to discuss MinWin, choosing instead to focus on a point that is many users' hot button: assuring them that applications and drivers will remain compatible even if the kernel changes. In fact, the new kernel may have already debuted in Vista.

"We're very clear that drivers and software that work on Windows Vista are going to work really well on Windows 7; in fact, they'll work the same," Sinofsky told CNET.

Users expect Windows 7 to be faster than Vista

It may be that customers' fears about the effect of a new kernel on the compatibility of device drivers and applications have kept Microsoft officials from being more forthcoming. Still, the confusion has left even savvy technology analysts scratching their heads.

"I have heard that there wouldn't be major changes to the kernel in Windows 7," Charles King, principal analyst at Pund-IT, told Windows Secrets, though he admits that the question could ultimately be a matter of semantics.

If Microsoft slips a new kernel into Windows 7, will anyone really care? Should they care?

"Issues around the kernel should be transparent to users," King added.

Michael Cherry, an analyst at Directions on Microsoft, echoes King's sentiments regarding both the confusion and users' awareness. "I'm not convinced that MinWin isn't already in SP1," he said. "The kernel mode code is not something that the user touches or is even aware of," Cherry added.

The confusion — as well as Microsoft's reluctance to talk about MinWin — may be cleared up on Oct. 28, when the company kicks off its annual Professional Developers Conference in Los Angeles. At the event, officials will present keynote speeches and more than 20 technical sessions on Windows 7. Additionally, all attendees will receive copies of the pre-beta code for Windows 7 to try out.

Microsoft officials have not yet said when end-user beta testing of Windows 7 will start. No release date has been set for the public beta, although news reports state that Microsoft is shooting to issue a beta in mid-December and to deliver the final product in June 2009.

To date, the company has been willing to say only that Windows 7 will be released roughly three years after Vista's consumer launch on Jan. 30, 2007.

Stuart Johnston is associate editor of WindowsSecrets.com. He has written about technology for InfoWorld, Computerworld, InformationWeek, and InternetNews.com.

[shiv]

http://windowssecrets.com/2008/10/02/03 ... new-kernel

Does Vista already have Windows 7's new kernel?

By Stuart J. Johnston

For those waiting for a faster, better-performing version of Windows, you'll have to wait at least nine months for Windows 7.

But if you can't wait, Vista Service Pack 1 may provide a peek into Microsoft's plans to equip Windows 7 with a dramatically smaller, more agile operating-system kernel.

The new kernel is meant to deliver the kind of performance boost that users have been demanding ever since Vista first shipped nearly two years ago. In fact, the new kernel may already be in Vista SP1. (An operating system's kernel is a core piece of the system that manages the computer's resources.)

Unfortunately, Microsoft isn't saying whether Vista's kernel has been updated.

According to an analysis performed by Australian tech publication APC Magazine, Vista's first service pack sports the same kernel as Windows Server 2008: version 6.0.6001. The original release of the Vista kernel was version 6.0.6000, APC said.

Sharing a kernel wouldn't be too much of a stretch, considering that Vista SP1 and Windows Server 2008 were released to manufacturing (RTM) on the same day.

"We are going to build on the success and the strength of the Windows Server 2008 kernel, and that has all of this [kernel] work that you've been talking about," Steven Sinofsky, senior vice president of Windows and Windows Live engineering, told CNET in May.

"The key there is that the kernel in Windows Server 2008 is an evolution of the kernel in Windows Vista, and then Windows 7 will be a further evolution of that kernel as well," Sinofsky added.

Vista SP1 may already have 'MinWin' on board

While Vista SP1 does show some relatively small performance improvements over the original release, that's nothing compared to what Microsoft is hoping to deliver with Windows 7 — that is, if the company follows through on its previous public statements about the OS.


A benchmark test of SP1 done last winter by PC World found small but incremental improvements over Vista RTM in specific areas of performance. For instance, compared to the original release, SP1 was 9% faster on a file-copying test. Meanwhile, results were unchanged from Vista RTM when it came to system startup and shutdown speeds.

Windows 7 — the codename for the next Windows release due by early 2010 — will contain a more evolved version of the kernel, which Microsoft has somewhat confusingly named "MinWin." The company's goal is to dramatically shrink the amount of the code that runs at the heart of the operating system.

"[MinWin] is running in 40MB of memory, a lot less than the 2GB that you're used to" with the original Vista kernel, Microsoft Distinguished Engineer Eric Traut told a group at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign last October.

In his presentation, Traut was adamant that Windows 7 will sport the new, much smaller kernel.

"The core of the system is really streamlined," Traut said.

Since Traut's address, however, Microsoft executives have been less than clear about what MinWin really is. Also, Microsoft pronouncements as to when MinWin will enter the production code base for Windows have been squishy at best.

For instance, last December, Microsoft Technical Fellow Mark Russinovich, who founded Winternals and is a member of the Windows Core Architecture group, told an interviewer on Microsoft's Channel 9 developers' site that the version of MinWin incorporated into Windows Server 2008 is not the same as the MinWin coming in Windows 7.

Making things even murkier, company officials — particularly Sinfosky — decline to discuss MinWin, choosing instead to focus on a point that is many users' hot button: assuring them that applications and drivers will remain compatible even if the kernel changes. In fact, the new kernel may have already debuted in Vista.

"We're very clear that drivers and software that work on Windows Vista are going to work really well on Windows 7; in fact, they'll work the same," Sinofsky told CNET.

Users expect Windows 7 to be faster than Vista

It may be that customers' fears about the effect of a new kernel on the compatibility of device drivers and applications have kept Microsoft officials from being more forthcoming. Still, the confusion has left even savvy technology analysts scratching their heads.

"I have heard that there wouldn't be major changes to the kernel in Windows 7," Charles King, principal analyst at Pund-IT, told Windows Secrets, though he admits that the question could ultimately be a matter of semantics.

If Microsoft slips a new kernel into Windows 7, will anyone really care? Should they care?

"Issues around the kernel should be transparent to users," King added.

Michael Cherry, an analyst at Directions on Microsoft, echoes King's sentiments regarding both the confusion and users' awareness. "I'm not convinced that MinWin isn't already in SP1," he said. "The kernel mode code is not something that the user touches or is even aware of," Cherry added.

The confusion — as well as Microsoft's reluctance to talk about MinWin — may be cleared up on Oct. 28, when the company kicks off its annual Professional Developers Conference in Los Angeles. At the event, officials will present keynote speeches and more than 20 technical sessions on Windows 7. Additionally, all attendees will receive copies of the pre-beta code for Windows 7 to try out.

Microsoft officials have not yet said when end-user beta testing of Windows 7 will start. No release date has been set for the public beta, although news reports state that Microsoft is shooting to issue a beta in mid-December and to deliver the final product in June 2009.

To date, the company has been willing to say only that Windows 7 will be released roughly three years after Vista's consumer launch on Jan. 30, 2007.

Stuart Johnston is associate editor of WindowsSecrets.com. He has written about technology for InfoWorld, Computerworld, InformationWeek, and InternetNews.com.

I want Windows 7 now!!!

[RuadRauFlessa]

ty Hex_Rated,

That clears up a couple of things.

[ryanrich]

I want Windows 7 now!!!

As do I! It's going to be an awesome OS, especially since they're utilising the 2008 kernel and making even further advancements to it. I've been playing around more and more with 2008 and am currently studying for my last MCITP 2008 exams and it has some really cool features, definitely the best server OS I've used.

[shiv]

I want Windows 7 now!!!

As do I! It's going to be an awesome OS, especially since they're utilising the 2008 kernel and making even further advancements to it. I've been playing around more and more with 2008 and am currently studying for my last MCITP 2008 exams and it has some really cool features, definitely the best server OS I've used.

Is Windows Server 2008 compatible with XP/Vista apps?
And more importantly, can it run games?

If yes to both, I won't mind installing it

[fbman]

Hi all

The answer your question shiv

it is possible to get windows Server 2008 to run like a Workstations see link below for article

http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2008/03/wi ... right.html

and

http://www.tech-recipes.com/rx/2576/win ... sta_theme/

[shiv]

Hi all

The answer your question shiv

it is possible to get windows Server 2008 to run like a Workstations see link below for article

http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2008/03/wi ... right.html

and

http://www.tech-recipes.com/rx/2576/win ... sta_theme/

Thanks, very interesting... gonna install it in a VM.
Apparently this OS can play games too, after googling a bit.

[ryanrich]

fbman beat me to it! Was gonna post some links for you regarding running 2008 as a client OS.

Yeah VM is the way to go for some testing, I'm currently running Beta 3 in a VM playing around with it.

[shiv]

fbman beat me to it! Was gonna post some links for you regarding running 2008 as a client OS.

Yeah VM is the way to go for some testing, I'm currently running Beta 3 in a VM playing around with it.

Please post your experiences with this OS... very interesting!!!!

[ryanrich]

Here is a great guide to converting 2008 Server to 2008 Workstation.

http://www.win2008workstation.com/wordpress/

I recommend downloading the full guide in PDF from the link provided.

I'm still busy testing 2008 as a Server so haven't had much time to check it out as a Workstation OS, but will soon. The easiest way to enable it for Workstation use is to replace the standard license file (tokens.dat) with that of your own activated Vista SP1 license file. This converts all settings to that of Vista, such as giving preference to Programs over Background Services etc. It also however disables the Server roles, which is why I'm not testing it as such yet as I'm still busy with the Server side.

[Anakha56]

I so wish I could get my hands on Server 2008 to play with

[shiv]

I so wish I could get my hands on Server 2008 to play with

I have it, but the damn thing keeps expiring
I thought it was supposed to work for 60 days, but I haven't even used it for an hour.

MS!!!

[ryanrich]

I so wish I could get my hands on Server 2008 to play with

I have it, but the damn thing keeps expiring
I thought it was supposed to work for 60 days, but I haven't even used it for an hour.

MS!!!

It works for 60 days if you enter no license key and say don't activate automatically yeah, but that was up until April 7th 2008. Easiest way is to change your BIOS date to before April 7th 2008 and voila.

Anakha: I'll gladly write Beta 3 to DVD and mail it to you if you like.

[shiv]

I so wish I could get my hands on Server 2008 to play with

I have it, but the damn thing keeps expiring
I thought it was supposed to work for 60 days, but I haven't even used it for an hour.

MS!!!

It works for 60 days if you enter no license key and say don't activate automatically yeah, but that was up until April 7th 2008. Easiest way is to change your BIOS date to before April 7th 2008 and voila.

Anakha: I'll gladly write Beta 3 to DVD and mail it to you if you like.

I know about the date thing!
I'm using VMWare, I set the date to 15/02/2008, and everything worked fine.
Then I installed VMWare Tools...
But I still remembered changing the date...
Argh!

[ryanrich]

Yeah as soon as you install VMware tools it resets the date in the BIOS and you buggered, hehe. There are ways to disable the activation, but I'm not sure of the legality of this, even though it is a Beta version...

[shiv]

Yeah as soon as you install VMware tools it resets the date in the BIOS and you buggered, hehe. There are ways to disable the activation, but I'm not sure of the legality of this, even though it is a Beta version...

I don't think I'm using the beta version.
Is build 6001 beta?

[ryanrich]

Yeah mine is also 6001. Does it say Server 2008 or Windows Server Codename "Longhorn" if you run winver from a CMD prompt?

I'm trying to get a hold of RC1 or RTM.

[shiv]

Yeah mine is also 6001. Does it say Server 2008 or Windows Server Codename "Longhorn" if you run winver from a CMD prompt?

I'm trying to get a hold of RC1 or RTM.

Will let you know in about 15 minutes, formatting and reinstalling

[ADV4NCED]

Yeah mine is also 6001. Does it say Server 2008 or Windows Server Codename "Longhorn" if you run winver from a CMD prompt?

I'm trying to get a hold of RC1 or RTM.

Ermm...I'm using Vista Ultimate SP1 and typing winver in cmd also responds that I'm using (version 6) build 6001

[shiv]

Yeah mine is also 6001. Does it say Server 2008 or Windows Server Codename "Longhorn" if you run winver from a CMD prompt?

I'm trying to get a hold of RC1 or RTM.

Will let you know in about 15 minutes, formatting and reinstalling

It says:
Microsoft Windows Server
Version 6.0 (Build 6001: Service Pack 1, v.275)