We end up looking after the technical aspects of online internet forums.Anakha56 wrote:I still not have seen a counter argument for how a developer should make money if everyone pirates their games? That seems to get avoided at all costs I wonder why...
Piracy article in June issue
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
Sure, that is the assumption I'm making. Of course, that's not entirely accurate, as not everyone would buy, but a vast majority of those pirates would have paid for that game, but aren't paying for it now.
Think about it: If you really want to play something, and piracy is not an option, you're GOING to pay for it. I bought myself a copy of Splinter Cell: Conviction a few weeks ago. Had I not bought the original, I wouldn't have been able to do the Co-op. See?
So i read the rest of this thread:
Tell me something: If you and your buddies, and "90%" of everyone just copied the game, how is EA (for example) supposed to fund the next game? Are they going to pull the money out of their thumb too?
"Hey guys, I'm a rapist. But in my spare time, I like to do community service at a homeless shelter. So I'm a good guy. The end."
Dude, good things don't cancel out bad things. Even if you give a million bucks to charity every month, that wouldn't justify you stealing (sorry, NOT STEALING) a $10 CD from a musician.
I find it hard to believe we're actually having this debate. This sort of argument if for school kids that don't know what theft is.
Think about it: If you really want to play something, and piracy is not an option, you're GOING to pay for it. I bought myself a copy of Splinter Cell: Conviction a few weeks ago. Had I not bought the original, I wouldn't have been able to do the Co-op. See?
So i read the rest of this thread:
Yeah, you pulled that number straight out of your thumb.Monty wrote:Do you have a reputable source for that statement? Or have you just sucked thumb and dropped a number?Bladerunner wrote:Common misconception. 90% of pirates would not have bought it if they couldn't pirate it in the first place. So in that sense the company really isn't losing money.
Yeah, and where does the money come from that they're being paid with?Bladerunner wrote:Secondly, in large companies like EA, the developers are being paid for their hours clocked with little regard to sales. It's not like they're eating dry pieces of bread every night until you go and buy that game.
Tell me something: If you and your buddies, and "90%" of everyone just copied the game, how is EA (for example) supposed to fund the next game? Are they going to pull the money out of their thumb too?
"A website"? So, because a website says so, it's so? Furthermore, what website is this? No link?Bladerunner wrote:I am quoting the following from a website:
People who copy information, like people who gossip (the analogy of passing on “unauthorized” information here is intentional), are not thieves. They may not be as morally wholesome as saints but they only commit the crime of theft in your antiquated and mistaken view of the ontology of information. Information is not an object.
Dude, are you listening to yourself?Bladerunner wrote:My point was just because I pirate games and music, I am not a b@stard. What if you knew I was involved in charity work with the poor and homeless? Would you still say I have no moral or ethical values? Would that change your view of the evil b@stard who pirates every damn thing and should be crucified for something which cannot really be defined as stealing in the first place?
Piracy is not theft. (Do I need to put the helpful diagram up again?)
"Hey guys, I'm a rapist. But in my spare time, I like to do community service at a homeless shelter. So I'm a good guy. The end."
Dude, good things don't cancel out bad things. Even if you give a million bucks to charity every month, that wouldn't justify you stealing (sorry, NOT STEALING) a $10 CD from a musician.
I find it hard to believe we're actually having this debate. This sort of argument if for school kids that don't know what theft is.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
DAE_JA_VOO wrote:
Yeah, you pulled that number straight out of your thumb.
I said it was an estimation from personal experience. Prove it wrong if you disagree, until then either of us are correct.
Tell me something: If you and your buddies, and "90%" of everyone just copied the game, how is EA (for example) supposed to fund the next game? Are they going to pull the money out of their thumb too?
By the money they get from people who really want to buy it. And 90% of people do not copy the game. Exaggerated facts once again.
"A website"? So, because a website says so, it's so? Furthermore, what website is this? No link?
No because the article had a valid and good point. Information is something abstract. It is not an object. It is not being taken away from the owner and no-one is being deprived of it.
"Hey guys, I'm a rapist. But in my spare time, I like to do community service at a homeless shelter. So I'm a good guy. The end."
Rape and piracy are two completely different and incomparable things. My point was that if I do one "bad" thing (since it's only your opinion), that does not mean I have no ethical or moral values.
I find it hard to believe we're actually having this debate. This sort of argument if for school kids that don't know what theft is.
What I find amusing is how all of you are becoming really aggressive about this. Yes I pirate, it's a BIG deal and the world will end if all software were to be freely available. And anyone who pirates software is completely devoid of emotions or feelings and is equivalent to a rapist.
Last edited by Bladerunner on 25 May 2010, 10:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
Bladerunner, please answer my question above.Anakha56 wrote:I still not have seen a counter argument for how a developer should make money if everyone pirates their games? That seems to get avoided at all costs I wonder why...
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
Forget it, Anakha. Both of us are wasting our time.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
DJV I am not that intent on dropping it just yet . Once I get the answer form that question we shall see where I stand .
JUSTICE, n A commodity which is a more or less adulterated condition the State sells to the citizen as a reward for his allegiance, taxes and personal service.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
See my post above too.Anakha56 wrote:Bladerunner, please answer my question above.Anakha56 wrote:I still not have seen a counter argument for how a developer should make money if everyone pirates their games? That seems to get avoided at all costs I wonder why...
There are loyal buyers (like you bunch) who fund the companies.
There's also the example set by the linux chaps who ask for donations instead.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
I stopped taking you seriously right here. Its not the same at aaaallll.Bladerunner wrote:No. If i take a pair of shoes from a store without paying, that is theft. If I make a replica of those shoes, it isn't.
Geez people, I can't believe you are entertaining this guy. In a perfect world he would be a troll, but it saddens me that he aint. How someone can defend such an idiotic mindset is nothing but pure class, in a bad sense of course.
Let me sum it up:
Game companies make the game. Its theirs. They make the rules about how people obtain this game. Now, these rules are enforced by state law. No fancy "but piracy aint theft 'cause its only a copy" ****** is going to get you out of this one. (Maybe in your circle of friends.) No personal interpretation of piracy is going to make it right. Copyright laws decide what is right and wrong. Its not relative. Whether piracy is theft of merely copying is ******** irrelevant!!!!!! Either one of those two breaks some kind of LAW.
Its been said a million times here... Gaming is a luxury. If you don't want to spend the money, then you can't play the game.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
So you feel that it is okay to steal a game and have other people pay for your ineptness and laziness? You are the reason why games are increasing in price because developers are finding it increasingly difficult to fund their top notch games with their few loyal buyers. All the people you distribute the game to over a lan has at least one potential sale lost. I am sorry but your argument is selfish and extremely arrogant. Out of curiosity what religion do you follow? It is not my intent to bring religion in this but if you say you are Christian then I firmly think you should go and study your Bible again.Bladerunner wrote: There are loyal buyers (like you bunch) who fund the companies.
Thank you for making my hobby increase in price, thank you for making the hole in my pocket bigger with every game you pirate, thank you for driving good dev's away from the PC market, thank you for driving excellent dev's to enforce DRM that screws me over.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
Anakha56 wrote: It is not my intent to bring religion in this but if you say you are Christian then I firmly think you should go and study your Bible again.
Please don't. Religion has nothing to do with this.
Thank you for making my hobby increase in price, thank you for making the hole in my pocket bigger with every game you pirate, thank you for driving good dev's away from the PC market, thank you for driving excellent dev's to enforce DRM that screws me over.
So why not buy your game and crack the DRM? It's been cracked, or so I've heard. You've bought the legal copy, so what prevents you from cracking it. And if you cracked it, you wouldn't have been bothered with DRM in the first place.
Gentlemen, at most piracy can be an infringement of copyright. But it is not theft. And there is a difference. Secondly, the figures are hugely exaggerated when it comes to piracy. I've made my point, and since this is getting to a personal level (even involving religion now), I believe I shall not be posting here again.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
Well trolled sir!
Re: Piracy article in June issue
If I borrow a friend's original, and play that instead of buying the original, that has the exact same economic impact on the company as me pirating a copy. Is that as morally repugnant?
What if, instead of borrowing a friend's original, I just play the game on his PC whenever I'm at his house. Is that also stealing? Technically, I have had the privilege of playing the game without the developers seeing my money.
What if, instead of borrowing a friend's original, I just play the game on his PC whenever I'm at his house. Is that also stealing? Technically, I have had the privilege of playing the game without the developers seeing my money.
Re: Piracy article in June issue
Actually, it very much does. Piracy is a breach of the law. The Bible speaks very clearly to that issue.Bladerunner wrote:Anakha56 wrote: It is not my intent to bring religion in this but if you say you are Christian then I firmly think you should go and study your Bible again.
Please don't. Religion has nothing to do with this.
But this is not the place for that discussion.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
Just lock the thread please, someone. This is a stupid debate, and Bladerunner is obviously missing the point completely. We're wasting our time here.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
So it is then acceptable for me, as an agnostic, to commit piracy?Stuart wrote:Actually, it very much does. Piracy is a breach of the law. The Bible speaks very clearly to that issue.Bladerunner wrote:Anakha56 wrote: It is not my intent to bring religion in this but if you say you are Christian then I firmly think you should go and study your Bible again.
Please don't. Religion has nothing to do with this.
But this is not the place for that discussion.
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A surprising amount of modern pseudoscience is coming out of the environmental sector. Perhaps it should not be so surprising given that environmentalism is political rather than scientific.
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A surprising amount of modern pseudoscience is coming out of the environmental sector. Perhaps it should not be so surprising given that environmentalism is political rather than scientific.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
Actually, as Stuart said, it has alot.Bladerunner wrote:Please don't. Religion has nothing to do with this.Anakha56 wrote: It is not my intent to bring religion in this but if you say you are Christian then I firmly think you should go and study your Bible again.
I have exactly the same question to ask of you, why aren't you buying the game and cracking the DRM, If DRM is one of the reasons you don't like buying the games?Bladerunner wrote:So why not buy your game and crack the DRM? It's been cracked, or so I've heard. You've bought the legal copy, so what prevents you from cracking it. And if you cracked it, you wouldn't have been bothered with DRM in the first place.Anakha56 wrote:Thank you for making my hobby increase in price, thank you for making the hole in my pocket bigger with every game you pirate, thank you for driving good dev's away from the PC market, thank you for driving excellent dev's to enforce DRM that screws me over.
You are still trying to rationalise it? Stop trying to subvert the issue away by debating the meaning the word. It's not clever and it's just pissing everyone else off.Bladerunner wrote:Gentlemen, at most piracy can be an infringement of copyright. But it is not theft. And there is a difference. Secondly, the figures are hugely exaggerated when it comes to piracy. I've made my point, and since this is getting to a personal level (even involving religion now), I believe I shall not be posting here again.
And learn to quote properly; I am sick of spending 10 minutes formating your posts into a readable manner!
In some ways I would like to agree with you, but I feel so strongly about this issue!DAE_JA_VOO wrote:Just lock the thread please, someone. This is a stupid debate, and Bladerunner is obviously missing the point completely. We're wasting our time here.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
Please motivate that?Prime wrote:Actually, as Stuart said, it has alot.Bladerunner wrote: Please don't. Religion has nothing to do with this.
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A surprising amount of modern pseudoscience is coming out of the environmental sector. Perhaps it should not be so surprising given that environmentalism is political rather than scientific.
Timothy Casey
A surprising amount of modern pseudoscience is coming out of the environmental sector. Perhaps it should not be so surprising given that environmentalism is political rather than scientific.
Timothy Casey
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
Not if everyone is following your example.Bladerunner wrote:See my post above too.Anakha56 wrote:Bladerunner, please answer my question above.Anakha56 wrote:I still not have seen a counter argument for how a developer should make money if everyone pirates their games? That seems to get avoided at all costs I wonder why...
There are loyal buyers (like you bunch) who fund the companies.
More attempts at misdirection. Can you in all honesty say that you, yourself, as a ruthless pirate, would pay for a game if it were on a donation basis?Bladerunner wrote:There's also the example set by the linux chaps who ask for donations instead.
Do you donate money to those linux dev's?
From what you have said in this thread, i honestly do not believe you would.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
If he claims to belong to a religion, then he needs to sit down and read his holy texts because I am damn sure it will say that theft is a sin or Bad Karma or something which along those lines and that its just as bad as murder or rape.doo_much wrote:Please motivate that?Prime wrote:Actually, as Stuart said, it has alot.Bladerunner wrote: Please don't. Religion has nothing to do with this.
As an Atheist, I have to follow the laws in the country I live in first and foremost (And If I seriously question the laws, I should take up the correct legal channels to try and change them), beyond that I subscribe to an ethical heirachy and seek a balance between Deontology and Consequentialism. I am also governed by evolutionary ethics.]
Happy?
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
No, actually I'm not happy.
By being an atheist that doesn't support software piracy you are proving that, as he said, "Religion has nothing to do with it."
But then again maybe I had a troubled childhood and this is why I'm not happy. Who knows?
Anyway. Can we please get back to Starbound's original post?
By being an atheist that doesn't support software piracy you are proving that, as he said, "Religion has nothing to do with it."
But then again maybe I had a troubled childhood and this is why I'm not happy. Who knows?
Anyway. Can we please get back to Starbound's original post?
Are the figures derived from some statistical inference model or ...?Next is the piracy figures from MW2 during Nov 2009 wasnt it? 300k pc sales vs 4.1 mil pirate downloads. How accurate is that info? How legit is the source?
MOOD - Thirsty
A surprising amount of modern pseudoscience is coming out of the environmental sector. Perhaps it should not be so surprising given that environmentalism is political rather than scientific.
Timothy Casey
A surprising amount of modern pseudoscience is coming out of the environmental sector. Perhaps it should not be so surprising given that environmentalism is political rather than scientific.
Timothy Casey
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
Ok let's take this to the next level and alleviate any misconceptions anyone might have. By installing a game you automatically agree to the terms and conditions which is a legally binding contract. So now for an extract...
[/quote="CALL OF DUTY 4: MODERN WARFARE EULA"]LIMITED USE LICENSE: Activision grants you the non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited right and license to use the Program Utilities solely for your own personal, non-commercial use in order to create the New Game Materials. All rights not specifically granted under this Agreement are reserved by Activision and, as applicable, Activision’s licensors. The Program Utilities are licensed, not sold. This license confers no title or ownership in the Program Utilities and should not be construed as a sale of any rights in the Program Utilities. [/quote]
So you may not copy it. And yes you can buy the original of a game and the crack your legal copy but then that legal copy won't be legal any more as you would infringe on another clause of any standard License agreement attached to any game.WoW Terms and Conditions wrote:Additional License Limitations.
The license granted to you in Section 1 is subject to the limitations set forth in Sections 1 and 2 (collectively, the "License Limitations"). Any use of the Game in violation of the License Limitations will be regarded as an infringement of Blizzard's copyrights in and to the Game. You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:
A. in whole or in part, copy, photocopy, reproduce, translate, reverse engineer, derive source code from, modify, disassemble, decompile, or create derivative works based on the Game; provided, however, that you may make one (1) copy of the Game Client and the Manuals for archival purposes only;
And then lastly a word regarding lending out of the software/game to a friend...WoW EULA wrote:E. modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Game Client in any way not expressly authorized by Blizzard;
[/quote="CALL OF DUTY 4: MODERN WARFARE EULA"]LIMITED USE LICENSE: Activision grants you the non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited right and license to use the Program Utilities solely for your own personal, non-commercial use in order to create the New Game Materials. All rights not specifically granted under this Agreement are reserved by Activision and, as applicable, Activision’s licensors. The Program Utilities are licensed, not sold. This license confers no title or ownership in the Program Utilities and should not be construed as a sale of any rights in the Program Utilities. [/quote]
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
While, I agree on the quote about software modification being standard on All Eula's, I certain that non transference is not in all Eula's. And what is a program utility?RuadRauFlessa wrote:Ok let's take this to the next level and alleviate any misconceptions anyone might have. By installing a game you automatically agree to the terms and conditions which is a legally binding contract. So now for an extract...
So you may not copy it. And yes you can buy the original of a game and the crack your legal copy but then that legal copy won't be legal any more as you would infringe on another clause of any standard License agreement attached to any game.WoW Terms and Conditions wrote:Additional License Limitations.
The license granted to you in Section 1 is subject to the limitations set forth in Sections 1 and 2 (collectively, the "License Limitations"). Any use of the Game in violation of the License Limitations will be regarded as an infringement of Blizzard's copyrights in and to the Game. You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:
A. in whole or in part, copy, photocopy, reproduce, translate, reverse engineer, derive source code from, modify, disassemble, decompile, or create derivative works based on the Game; provided, however, that you may make one (1) copy of the Game Client and the Manuals for archival purposes only;
And then lastly a word regarding lending out of the software/game to a friend...WoW EULA wrote:E. modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Game Client in any way not expressly authorized by Blizzard;
CALL OF DUTY 4: MODERN WARFARE EULA wrote:LIMITED USE LICENSE: Activision grants you the non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited right and license to use the Program Utilities solely for your own personal, non-commercial use in order to create the New Game Materials. All rights not specifically granted under this Agreement are reserved by Activision and, as applicable, Activision’s licensors. The Program Utilities are licensed, not sold. This license confers no title or ownership in the Program Utilities and should not be construed as a sale of any rights in the Program Utilities.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
Nopedoo_much wrote:No, actually I'm not happy.
By being an atheist that doesn't support software piracy you are proving that, as he said, "Religion has nothing to do with it."
But then again maybe I had a troubled childhood and this is why I'm not happy. Who knows?
Anyway. Can we please get back to Starbound's original post?
Are the figures derived from some statistical inference model or ...?Next is the piracy figures from MW2 during Nov 2009 wasnt it? 300k pc sales vs 4.1 mil pirate downloads. How accurate is that info? How legit is the source?
4.1mil downloads sounds about right
http://torrentfreak.com/the-most-pirate ... 09-091227/
Regarding actual sales stats.... (source)
Anita Frazer of the NPD Group reported in March 2010 that the game had sold slightly under 10 million copies in the U.S. alone
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
Ok What is your favorite pirated game ???Prime wrote:While, I agree on the quote about software modification being standard on All Eula's, I certain that non transference is not in all Eula's. And what is a program utility?RuadRauFlessa wrote:Ok let's take this to the next level and alleviate any misconceptions anyone might have. By installing a game you automatically agree to the terms and conditions which is a legally binding contract. So now for an extract...
So you may not copy it. And yes you can buy the original of a game and the crack your legal copy but then that legal copy won't be legal any more as you would infringe on another clause of any standard License agreement attached to any game.WoW Terms and Conditions wrote:Additional License Limitations.
The license granted to you in Section 1 is subject to the limitations set forth in Sections 1 and 2 (collectively, the "License Limitations"). Any use of the Game in violation of the License Limitations will be regarded as an infringement of Blizzard's copyrights in and to the Game. You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:
A. in whole or in part, copy, photocopy, reproduce, translate, reverse engineer, derive source code from, modify, disassemble, decompile, or create derivative works based on the Game; provided, however, that you may make one (1) copy of the Game Client and the Manuals for archival purposes only;
And then lastly a word regarding lending out of the software/game to a friend...WoW EULA wrote:E. modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Game Client in any way not expressly authorized by Blizzard;
CALL OF DUTY 4: MODERN WARFARE EULA wrote:LIMITED USE LICENSE: Activision grants you the non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited right and license to use the Program Utilities solely for your own personal, non-commercial use in order to create the New Game Materials. All rights not specifically granted under this Agreement are reserved by Activision and, as applicable, Activision’s licensors. The Program Utilities are licensed, not sold. This license confers no title or ownership in the Program Utilities and should not be construed as a sale of any rights in the Program Utilities.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue
Thanks.RuadRauFlessa wrote:Nopedoo_much wrote:No, actually I'm not happy.
By being an atheist that doesn't support software piracy you are proving that, as he said, "Religion has nothing to do with it."
But then again maybe I had a troubled childhood and this is why I'm not happy. Who knows?
Anyway. Can we please get back to Starbound's original post?
Are the figures derived from some statistical inference model or ...?Next is the piracy figures from MW2 during Nov 2009 wasnt it? 300k pc sales vs 4.1 mil pirate downloads. How accurate is that info? How legit is the source?
4.1mil downloads sounds about right
http://torrentfreak.com/the-most-pirate ... 09-091227/
Regarding actual sales stats.... (source)Anita Frazer of the NPD Group reported in March 2010 that the game had sold slightly under 10 million copies in the U.S. alone
So - no funny mucking about with stats. Real downloads. Awesome...
MOOD - Thirsty
A surprising amount of modern pseudoscience is coming out of the environmental sector. Perhaps it should not be so surprising given that environmentalism is political rather than scientific.
Timothy Casey
A surprising amount of modern pseudoscience is coming out of the environmental sector. Perhaps it should not be so surprising given that environmentalism is political rather than scientific.
Timothy Casey