Blu-Ray or HD-DVD?

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Blu-Ray or HD-DVD?

Post by Robster »

Hi all

A few months ago there arose a debate about which format would replace DVD in a few years' time: Blu-Ray or High Definition DVD (HD-DVD).

I haven't heard any more about the debate, but I'm curious as to which standard all of you highly-knowledgeable folk think is best.

Let the debate start... :D
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Post by Basipooh »

I heard that blu-ray will be used on PS3's thats bout all i know....
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Post by Sojourn »

Frankly, with us being technologically segregated from the rest of the world, I never had the financial opportunity to explore those optical hardware. One day we might...

S
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Post by Ihsahn »

All i know about blueray is that they are gonna have a 27gig but i was invited to a LG convention a while ago and spoke to one of koreas sales reps and he said that lg has already developed a 1 terabyte dvd in their labs
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Post by solo »

I support HD-DVD because some manufacturers have successfully produced them on existing DVD manufacturinf lines, therefore the comsumser should hopefully benefit from better prices.
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Post by Archangel »

I heard of 19gb Bluray DVDs, but can't remember where :? . In the July 2003 issue of PCF on page10 in the Coming Soon thing at the bottom they have blue laser, probably same as blue ray, DVDs of 30gb, but never seen anything about it anywhere else.
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Format wars: everyone could end up losing

Post by jee »

As the two sides [Sony and Toshiba] struggled to reach a compromise, talks focused on the plastic section of the disc that is read by the laser. In Sony’s Blu-ray format, it is 0.1mm thick, while in Toshiba’s HD-DVD, it measures 0.6mm. “It was impossible to combine the two."

And so, the war is on. Toshiba, which has recruited Microsoft and Intel to its camp, is in the middle of a 40-city US tour to promote its HD-DVD format.

Sony, meanwhile – along with Philips and Pioneer – persuaded Dell, the world’s biggest personal computer maker, and most of the Hollywood studios, to back the rival Blu-ray format.
rest of the story
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Post by WiK1d »

Now what is the best??
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Post by cOokie_mOnster »

Isn't HD-DVD available already?
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Post by Thrall »

I'll just keep using regular DVDs until a clear winner emerges a la Betamax & VHS war
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Post by jee »

"Integrity" and "integer" both contain a Latin root meaning "whole; complete." The root sense, then, is that people may be said to be acting with integrity when their beliefs, words, and actions have a sense of unity or wholeness.
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Post by goku »

Thrall wrote:I'll just keep using regular DVDs until a clear winner emerges a la Betamax & VHS war

I will be doing the same as you Thrall :D ( Got stuck with Beta that time and won't make that mistake again).

Out of intrest does anybody know why they opted for VHS as the beta tapes were smaller so I would of thought they sticked to the smaller size. Both work the same as far I was concerned. :roll:
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Post by solo »

Cookie-Monster wrote:Isn't HD-DVD available already?
HD DVD players were being sold in Japan from last week Friday apparently.
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Post by Sojourn »

goku wrote:
Thrall wrote:I'll just keep using regular DVDs until a clear winner emerges a la Betamax & VHS war

I will be doing the same as you Thrall :D ( Got stuck with Beta that time and won't make that mistake again).

Out of intrest does anybody know why they opted for VHS as the beta tapes were smaller so I would of thought they sticked to the smaller size. Both work the same as far I was concerned. :roll:
The smaller size is what cost them their market share... read this.

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Post by goku »

Thanks Sojourn.

Nice read :)
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Post by Cameron_Losco »

goku wrote:
Thrall wrote:I'll just keep using regular DVDs until a clear winner emerges a la Betamax & VHS war

I will be doing the same as you Thrall :D ( Got stuck with Beta that time and won't make that mistake again).

Out of intrest does anybody know why they opted for VHS as the beta tapes were smaller so I would of thought they sticked to the smaller size. Both work the same as far I was concerned. :roll:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betamax#Th ... of_Betamax
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Post by Hendrix »

I think its probably down to the name,,,the public probably likes shorter names,,,VHS is easier on the tonque than Betamax.

And maybe that'll happen to HD-DVD and Blu-Ray,what you guys think?

It could also have been cheaper manufacturing.....
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Post by solo »

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Post by Robster »

It will depend on whether you prefer backward-compatibility or a new and possibly better technology, similar to XP not supporting 16-bit programs, which was a big talking point but we got over it and DOS eventually. :)

You can opt to go for something that will be cheaper and compatible with what you already have, but then that product runs the risk of being held back in technological advancement.
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Post by Rayne »

It will depend on the format Hustler and Private decide to ship my DVD's on -
Porn Banned on Blu-ray?

Sony denies, but this could mean trouble.


January 17, 2007 - There was no shortage of one-upmanship and taunting between the HD-DVD and Blu-ray camps last week at the annual CES convention, yet it may well be decided that the most telling drama between the formats was taking place at the same time, not in the tech-infested halls of the main convention center, but just next door at the Sands where the AVN tradeshow was going down. The AVNs are the CES and Oscars of the adult-entertainment industry, and in our mind proof that god loves geeks since the shows take place at the same time every year.

Last year, prior to either next-gen format launch, many of the largest porn production houses had anointed Blu-ray as the favorite format, reciting the general bullet-point benefits of the technology over HD-DVD, such as its inclusion in the PS3 and greater storage capacity per-layer. A year later, however, Blu-ray owners hoping to kick back with some high-def vicarious voluptuousness will find themselves empty handed, in more ways than one. There is no porn available on Blu-ray at all.

At the AVNs last week, Joone, founder of Digital Playgrounds, one of the industry's most forward thinking production houses, told German site Heise that despite both his and other outlets interest in releasing features on Blu-ray, Sony has pressured Blu-ray disc manufacturers not to produce any media for pornography, threatening revocation of licenses for failure to comply. As such the adult entertainment industry has been essentially blocked from supporting the format and as a result has turned to HD-DVD.

The HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray battle is often compared to the VHS vs. Betamax battle of yore. In that case, the pornography industry massively supported the technologically inferior VHS format in favor of Beta, leading, in many people's minds, the VHS standard to become prolific and Beta to dwindle and disappear. Though the internet has become a massive new force in porn distribution, disc distribution is still a large portion of the $57-billion-a-year industry. If Sony has indeed decided to lock so large and popular medium of entertainment out of its format the consequences may well be severe.
Update: Sony is now denying claims of a porn ban in Blu-ray. Speaking to Arstechnica, Marty Gordon, vice-chair of the Blu-ray Disc Association Promotions Committee, stated: "There is not a prohibition against adult content. The BDA welcomes the participation of all companies interested in using and supporting the format, particularly those from the content industry."

Regardless of an official ban or not, lack of pr0n for one next-gen format or the other won't be good. It may be possible that the lower production costs of HD-DVD mastering and copying are what has pushed the adult entertainment industry towards HD-DVD. IGN has contacted Digital Playground for clarification and is awaiting reply.
http://gear.ign.com/articles/756/756148p1.html
Blu-ray loves porn after all

I’M CONFUSED. I went to CES last week where I managed to get at least three or four conflicting reports about where Blu-ray going and how it’s going to get there. For instance, the Blu Ray Association had a very impressive line-up of most of the key Hollywood studio CEOs to explain which movies were on the way. And there are quite a few. This was followed by some great statistics about just how doomed HD DVD was and how the PS3 will tip the balance. I then ambled by the HD DVD side of the fence and got a conflicting set of stats and forecasts. I’m beginning to think that market research just might be a bit biased, depending on who’s paying. Anyway, apart from those two camps, the most accurate insight into how the war was shaping up came from a less obvious source: the porn convention across town.
While the gadgets at the CES Show were getting geeks all excited, just a mile down the road the 2007 AVN Adult Entertainment Expo was getting others a little hot under the collar. Even more so when it emerged from one prominent smut studio that Sony was blocking porn making the leap to the Blu-ray disc format. Personally, I was both sceptical and stunned. After looking into it a little, it emerged that the head of Digital Playground claimed that he was forced to change allegiances from Blu-ray to HD DVD because Blu-ray disc manufacturers were refusing to print the hot stuff for fear of Sony pulling their licence. Suddenly, more than any official statistic released throughout CES, the disc format war came under some microscopic scrutiny. When you consider that porn help decide the winner of the last great format war, you can see why everyone’s ears pricked up, so to speak.

By many accounts VHS would not have won its titanic struggle against Sony’s Betamax video tape format if it hadn’t been for porn. This might be over-stating its importance but it was an important factor. VHS became the tape format of choice for the trench-coat brigade, for which many of the first video rental stores – a dingy cupboard in the back of the local shop – were created. However, there were other reasons why VHS won, not least of which was that the hardware was cheaper to produce, JVC had less a stringent technology licensing set-up, the marketing was slicker and most importantly, VHS tapes could record 3 hours of TV while Betamax tapes were limited to an hour. For the porn studios VHS was simply a better format since it was the only one that could a take a full movie.

And now we have Blu-ray and HD DVD. Blu-ray is more expensive than HD DVD but it has higher capacities at 50GB and is considered to be technically superior. HD DVD discs and players are cheaper though. Both formats offer more than enough space for even the biggest inflated boobs and a higher resolution than you will ever wish to see big hairy asses pumping up and down. So why would Sony shoot itself in the foot again?

The answer is that it hasn’t. Once you get past the sensationalist headlines, there’s more to it. Big-time porn studio Vivid has announced its first Blu-ray porn movie, so there’s obviously a leak somewhere in the Blu-ray condom. Even the Blu-ray disc Association has reacted quickly by saying there is no ban against adult movie content.

It’s true that Sony doesn’t care for porn on its devices. It was unhappy when porn started arriving on the UMD disc format for the PSP and from certain quotes by porn makers, Sony is not actually being that helpful with Blu-ray. It’s not blocking them but, at the same time, it’s not exactly pointing them in the direction of Blu-ray disc manufacturers that can help them out. Many are having to find their own production sources

You can say a lot of things about Sony but stupid isn’t one of them. Well, most of the time anyway. There is no way that Sony can ignore the boost that porn can give the Blu-ray format. There are probably some older Sony execs that still have Betamax-related nightmares involving being chased by giant VHS video cassettes with enormous breasts.

The fact that many porn studios have already opted for HD DVD is fact not lost on the consumer electronics giant. Also, it’s not just about Sony. Blu-ray is a team effort, so to speak, and like any orgy everyone wants to get their rocks off. The other Blu-ray partners are well aware of the power of porn. It’s a $12.6bn market in the US alone and, of that, over $4bn comes from DVD rentals and sales. Morals aside, it’s just too big (or is that ‘engorged’?) to ignore. Porn might be dodgy but it sells and both format camps know that it could be the Viagra they need to pull ahead in this ridiculous format war.
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37021
Blu-ray, HD both doomed as pr0n industry twiddles thumbs

WHEN IT COMES to the HD-DVD versus Blu-ray battle, the winner is neither, they will both lose. Blu-ray will lose much quicker than HD, but neither will achieve the critical mass necessary to take off before the net overwhelms them.
The majority of this victory is due to one thing, Sony's arrogance. It doesn't learn from history, and is burdened with the huge millstone of unchecked ego. You can see signs of it everywhere, but the most obvious is at the Adult Entertainment Expo that goes along with CES. Sony underestimated porn.

There are several key players in HD porn. Some of them had an opinion, others did not, some were under various NDAs, others talked under promise of anonymity. They all fell into three camps. About half were taking their watches out and waiting, and all but one of the others were pro-HD-DVD. The one single holdout was both an HD and Blu proponent.

A year ago, everyone was leaning toward Blu because it has superior capacity. Many, including high def pioneer Digital Playground, (not a worksafe title page, so go to www.digitalplayground.com at your own risk) and others were heavily leaning toward the Blu camp. Some even went as far as to master movies in this format.

Then the cold hard reality intruded and Sony dropped the bomb. No, not the recalled Dell batteries, the fact that it would not allow any porn on Blu-ray at all. None. Never. When asked, several people claimed this was because of pressure from Disney, but there was no way of directly confirming this. Most called Sony puritanical [censored] with [censored] as big as a horses [censored] in a [censored]. Those were the nice ones.

Could it get worse? Most companies officially hate porn but love the money it brings in, so they give it tons of support behind the scenes. Not Sony. It is swinging the other way and going after anyone who replicates porn on Blu equipment. If you do, your licence gets pulled, basically putting you out of that business.

This makes me believe that Vivid, the one company that is still promising a Blu-ray title won't get very far with it. It may just not be aware of the wall they are about to hit, or it may have a backdoor. One person in the booth said that it was a done deal and the disks were coming out. There was no spokesperson available for official comments however, but there were banners with the Blu-Ray logo on them in the booth. I guess we will see when Debbie Does Dallas Again comes out.

One big problem with this is not pornography, but your rights. If Sony says no to content it doesn't like, and ends up winning the market, what if someone has content that Sony finds unsavoury for reasons relating to finance or other things? Got a documentary that is critical of Sony's chairman? It presumably can block it or revoke the keys. This is a hugely dangerous slippery slope we are on.

The next major hurdle is cost, something that was brought up from the earliest days of the format war. There are several facets to this, from mastering to licensing, to DRM. The most obvious is replication.

I am told it costs about $3 million to set up a Blu-ray replication line and about $100,000 to do the same with HD-DVD. If you are projected to sell a million copies, guess which one is economically viable? This is a major hurdle and adds a non-trivial amount to the cost of the disks.

One other thing to keep rattling around in the back of your head is that HD is backwards compatible while Blu is not. You can burn an HD movie on a DVD-9 if you can fit it on, and use the exact same mastering components you use on a normal DVD, With Blu, you are stuck.

Why is this important? A glass master disk costs about $25,000 to make for a single layer Blu-ray title and a lot more if you use multiple layers. Most people say DRM infections are mandated under Blu-ray, but others disagree. In any case, if you build the master and the DRM infection does not work, you basically eat the cost.

Since the tools to make this all work are immature and badly done, this happens a lot more than many would like. Through no fault of their own, simply because of monopoly bent fiat, companies may end up throwing out a few of these glass masters. Even if there is only one, this can be quite expensive per unit, something the little guys have to pay out of their pocket.

The funniest part? AACS is already breakable trivially, so Sony's insistence on having DRM must be about more than mere content protection, it does not do that any more. DRM infections add expense, time and effort, basically crowding the little guys out.

HD-DVD on the other hand does not require AACS, so there goes that expense if you choose. To make matters better, a master is much cheaper than an equivalent Blu disk.

On top of this, there is backwards compatibility to factor in. HD has it, Blu does not, and HD has one neat trick on top of this, you can burn HD-DVD formatted data on to a DVD-9 if it fits the size restrictions. With a little lower quality, you can get a 9GB movie instead of a 15GB one, and you save tons of money. DVD mastering parts cost next to nothing now.

The last bit about mastering took me by surprise, the cost of replication. The HD-DVD consortium announced three layer HDs last week, taking it up to a total of 50GB or so per disk. Blu is at 25GB per layer, 50 total over two layers. Three layers cost more, right?

Yes and no, the cost for doing multi-layer is all in the mastering. A glass master for a multilayer part, any multilayer part is much more expensive than a single. Once you have the master, the replication is very cheap. Tom Funk of High Def Home Entertainment told me that once you have the masters, replication is quite inexpensive, layers add pennies to each disc.

Will it be cheaper to make a two layer HD than a one layer Blu? Possibly. When you start comparing one vs the other, adding replication, licensing, and other various sundries, it gets quite messy to calculate.

Other than capacity, DRM infections and cost, the formats are identical. Joone of Digital Playground told me that to him, the formats are pretty much identical other than capacity. He would use the same VC1 compression for both. As far as I know, he is the only person at the show to have done both sides.

Then comes the social factors. HD players are much cheaper and more plentiful right now, with Microsoft putting the boot in over pricing with the Xbox 360 drive. Sony's PS3 is failing in the market, and instead of lifting its Blu technology with it, it is dragging it down. Very hard to shed a tear for that company though, go free market.

Most of the people at the show are actively against Blu-ray, or are at least not bothering until Sony does a complete turn around. In the mean time, they are actively promoting HD, but still do not have hopes for immediate high returns.

A comment by Joone, echoed by many others, is that HD now is all about planting the seeds. When consumers see HD porn available now, when they go out to buy in a year, they will have the idea that HD has porn and Blu does not rattling around in their heads.

What we are seeing is two historical battles played out once again, Beta versus VHS and magnetic versus Laser Disc. Beta was blown out of the water largely because Sony was puritanical and said no to porn. The market wanted porn, and Beta died a rather sad death in the US even though it was technically superior. Blu is technically superior to HD but has no porn, it is an exercise left up to the reader to work out the result.

Both HD and Blu also have the same problem that the Laserdisc had, they're expensive and there are almost as good options available elsewhere. With the fight on, camps building walled gardens at every opportunity they get, the only loser is the consumer. While they fight, people wait on the sidelines. Would you buy a format if half your movies were not available? Would you buy a format if there was a good chance it would die soon? Place your $1,000 on the line and watch them duke it out for 18 month long rounds.

While there are a good number of people actively replicating HD discs, many others including Kick *ss and Pure Play Media are fence sitting. To them, it makes little sense to jump in and eat the early adopter expenses for very little payback, the number of players out there is miniscule. So they wait, and will probably be waiting a long time.

One little tidbit of trivia, it seems that the old adage of porn not really wanting HD is far truer than you might think. There are some absolutely gorgeous women in porn, and some that are, well, umm, not quite as gorgeous. When you up the resolution a lot, you end up being able to see every detail of a person's anatomy, Things that you should never see unless you are a doctor.

A lot of people expressed the sentiment of purposely lowering resolution or quality, basically blurring things out for the sake sanity. Many said "do you really want to see that?" or similar things. The short answer is no. The longer answer was a discussion about the technical merits of using motion tracking and Photoshop brushes to remove zits. Quality might not be the same panacea here that it is in football.

That brings us to the 10,000 pound gorilla lurking aound the corner, not Tera Patrick's security moose, but the internet. It delivers lower quality images, for now, at a vastly lower production cost, and it will kill both formats.

The studios and electronics companies are waging war over HD-DVD and Blu-ray, and we all pay the price. Other than the LG combo drive, there is nothing that will do both. On the combo drives, you pay for twice the heads, twice the licensing, and quite possibly twice the DRM infection tax.

Instead of the studios playing nice for the benefit of the people paying them money, they are fighting, bitching and tearing you down. In a wonder of capitalism, it's you that has to pay for the privilege. Even odder is that people don't seem to care, let's call it a wonder of the educational system, or possibly the marvel of advertising.

The internet is open, most players are free, and the setup costs are far less than making physical product. It is also lower quality, but for now, I will consider that one a plus. While the big boys bicker and slow growth, the internet keeps getting faster, more capable and more ubiquitous.

In the end, Blu-ray will wither and HD-DVD will overtake it in just about every non-technical way, which is what matters. The hobbling and ill will generated by the early power grabs and walled gardens are going to doom both in favour of the internet.

If you look at history, all the precedents are there, Beta, Laserdisk and most recently the PSP. Proprietary and closed simply does not work, history shows the people care more about the things they want than the box it came in. Both formats are doomed, HD-DVD is just a little less doomed than Blu-ray.
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Post by Nuke »

So I guess from that that you are buying HD DVD? Both you and Jamin :lol:
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Post by naughty »

Hendrix wrote:I think its probably down to the name,,,the public probably likes shorter names,,,VHS is easier on the tonque than Betamax.

And maybe that'll happen to HD-DVD and Blu-Ray,what you guys think?

It could also have been cheaper manufacturing.....
actually this theory is totally incorrect - its explained in detail in the link that cameron provided - but to cut the long story short it was mainly recording time - you couldnt fit one entire movie onto a betamax tape initially - those were just 60 minutes long in the beginning - so for the average movie which was 1.5 hours long it could only fit onto two tapes inthe betamax format - whilst vhs offered 90 minutes initially and then went on to three hours and then also offered long play and extended play

by the time betamax caught up to this it was too late since most consumers already had a vhs and saw no need to get two machines hence betamax fell by the wayside

betamax was the better format in terms of picture quality and also it offered slow motion and rewind facilities way before vhs did - but despite those shortcomings it was the rental market that decided the format fates because it was easier to rent one tape rather than two unless it was an epic saga which was a really long movie

either way in terms of blu-ray vs hd-dvd panasonic is bringing a dual format player to the market - so you can have both
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Post by hamin_aus »

:lol: naughty, you must have been about my age during the VHS/BETA wars...

Respek to da ballie :!:
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Post by Cupis »

lol @ ballie thing

as far as i know blu-ray stuff is available... as for hd-DVD if it was released last week then they are too available...

now this part i am unclear but i know for a fact HD-DVD have already released movies on that format (since mid year last year as far as i know).. i am not sure if blu-ray will have

but for some reason i think that blu-ray will be more popular for data storage and pc use than for movies where the oposite for HD-DVD

the question arrises tho will pc drive offer both HD-DVD reading? reading back i see that they say the are impossible to combine... so then wiill pc market decide to give up watching Hd-DVD movies... or buy two drives?

i think not.. so it will be interesting to see which is going to be the popular one in the end...

or there is always this.. have not heard of any devolopment here for a long time though

HVD

im sure you have heard bout this already
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Post by naughty »

jamin_za wrote::lol: naughty, you must have been about my age during the VHS/BETA wars...

Respek to da ballie :!:
hahah - yeah - im still old enough to remeber when tv was introduced to SA - sony was one of the first brands with a huge box for a small speaker which was hip high but had a 4 x 6 inside the box and it was a 37 cm jobbie

really really of topic : btw talking about ballie's - have you heard a group[ called "DA Ballie's" - they sing a track called up and down - its actually damn nice as a party song - and the one guy "wilfie" (wilfred) plays with a band called afritude and the other guy kim used to be with funtime who played in "fun city" at butterworth hotel and also did a stint at "khayyam" whilst i was dj there - so both those okes are buddies of mine

i still need to get a copy - but watch for that song - gonna become very big in the party community

back on topic : Cupis - as ive said panasonic has combined them - so expect it to be combined even on the pc in the future - the non combining bit i think was how it was a while back - but things are changing - will do some legwork to see how they do it and report back
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