Server Advice

[madmind]

Hi All

First off, Brilliant Forum!

I need some advice from the experts, i have a small fileserver sitting on a network with 20 Machines / users. trouble is the server is running XP SP3 and there is a connection limit on maximum network users to 10 at a given time. this creates a problem as many users are unable to connect to it until someone disconnects. adding to this problem is that the macs on the network use up one connection per share and after mounting multiple shares per user, more connections get taken up. besides winXP, what other stable windows operating systems (older than XP) will allow more users? this is being done on a tight budget and purchasing WinServer + KELS or setting up a linux/unix server is simply not affordable.

any advice welcome

Cheers
Madmind~

[Ron2K]

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

I'm afraid that you're going to have to bite the bullet here. Client versions of Windows simply don't support a whole lot of NetBIOS connections - you'd need one of Microsoft's horrendously expensive server operating systems and a whole lot of client licenses to attain that - which would be a problem as far as your budget would go. You could still look into a Linux system - don't forget that it is affordable in terms of direct financial cost; time taken to get familiar with it if you're not already may be a factor, but I'm sure that there would be decent tutorials on Samba if you look hard enough. Alternatively, have you considered an FTP server?

Oh, and just a heads-up - I like the sig, but it's way too oversized to be permissible on this forum. Check out the forum rules as to what the maximum allowable dimensions and file sizes are, and then fix it up before jee notices...

[Nuke]

If it just a file server Linux will actually be a good option, unlimited users at almost no cost. Installing Ubuntu server LTS, apt-getting and configuring Samba should take no more than a day even if you never did it before. Here is quite a few people on the forum that will be able to help setting up linux.
I did just order some pc parts and 2x 2TB drives for setting up a storage device for my main PC(seeing that I have no more free SATA slots, and I don't trust a cheap NAS device). Going to use Ubuntu server for that too.

[hobojvr]

If your situation permits, you could look into virtualisation.

Run a linux flavour in a VM on the XP host or the other way around.

[madmind]

Hi Guys

Thanks for the speedy replies!

@Ron2k, i must admit, i'm not too familiar with Linux at all, maybe thats contributing to my unwillingness to give it a try... but it looks as though i may just HAVE to start experimenting with it! We currently have a hosted (by IS) ftp server, but the fileserver is actually a sort of storage bucket that sees between 300-600gb of traffic on a given day... i'm sure you can imagine how unproductive we'd be streaming that traffic off a 1mb connection! thanks for the heads up pal 'bout my sig, i will rectify it immediately

@Nuke, thanks for the advice man, i will definitely be giving it a shot soon. Ok so i know what Ubuntu is, but what is Samba and what does it do? are there reliable backup systems associated with Ubuntu? that is quite critical as the data on that server contains, amongst other things, a ton of archived work!
4TB... i drool at the thought, storage space is becoming a topic of grave concern... i have to turn away so much of decadent media daily as i've all but run out... that 2tb file storage on PC and 2x1.5tb externals...FULL! and i'm a pack rat so i'd never consider deleting anything!

[madmind]

If your situation permits, you could look into virtualisation.

Run a linux flavour in a VM on the XP host or the other way around.

Thanks for the reply mate, but i have absolutely no idea what that means.. please explain in baby talk?

cheers
madmind

[hobojvr]

You run operating system(s) on another operating system (host) using an application. The client OS's share the resources of the host OS, but they are for the most part completely shielded from one another.

You can run Linux within Windows, or Windows within Linux, Windows within Windows, Linux within Linux - you get the idea.

I don't claim to have a lot of experience with it, but I do use it successfully. Examples:

1: I run Ubuntu in Virtualbox on a permanent on Windows host connected to the Internet. It runs Squid 3.0 to regulate our office internet access: ad filtering, bandwidth limiting, caching, download limits, user authentication. The windows version of squid did not have the features I needed, so I HAD to learn Linux and squid.

2: I run about 7 Windows XP VM's in Hyper-V on a Server 2008R2 server. Each one is running some specialized temperamental industrial software that I'd like to keep separated. The nice thing about Hyper-V is that it integrates so well with windows backup so EVERYTHING on all those operating systems are backed up each night.

[Nuke]

Samba is the linux file sharing program that you can use to integrate with clients running windows. If you go to \\IP_Address of a server running samba you will access it like any windows machine. You can set it up with permissions, user names, etc.
You can use rsync to another linux server on a remote site as backup. You can tell rsync to run at eg. 8pm when no one is working to copy it over the internet to the backup server. Or you can just run hardware Raid5 on a true server, if one drive fails you pull it out, replace it and the the server to rebuild the missing data. If you really want to can even run raid 6 for if 2 drives fail at the same time. If you are worried about the server getting stolen you can back up the data to an external drive daily/weekly.
Running VM on winXP hosting a server sounds like something asking to go wrong. I believe in using the right tool at the right time. WinXp is not a server OS no matter how you look at it. The current XP machine most likely don't even have VT extensions on its CPU. The only windows XP "server" in our company is the one I don't do touch, the boss likes it and if it gives trouble he can fix it. Windows Server 2000, 2003 and 2008 is another matter entirely.
A proper NAS will cost around R35K without drives and if data is critical you won't use a cheap 5k piece of Dlink, Netgear, Edimax crap.

[hobojvr]

+1 on the "cheap" NAS. We've got a 4TB (3TB RAID 5) Western digital one on the network to store ISO's, monthly backups, articles etc and it's just not fast enough for more than a few users.

I think you need to have a talk to the boss, spend some money and get a proper server setup going.

[madmind]

You run operating system(s) on another operating system (host) using an application. The client OS's share the resources of the host OS, but they are for the most part completely shielded from one another.

You can run Linux within Windows, or Windows within Linux, Windows within Windows, Linux within Linux - you get the idea.

I don't claim to have a lot of experience with it, but I do use it successfully. Examples:

1: I run Ubuntu in Virtualbox on a permanent on Windows host connected to the Internet. It runs Squid 3.0 to regulate our office internet access: ad filtering, bandwidth limiting, caching, download limits, user authentication. The windows version of squid did not have the features I needed, so I HAD to learn Linux and squid.

2: I run about 7 Windows XP VM's in Hyper-V on a Server 2008R2 server. Each one is running some specialized temperamental industrial software that I'd like to keep separated. The nice thing about Hyper-V is that it integrates so well with windows backup so EVERYTHING on all those operating systems are backed up each night.

Hey Hobojvr, ok i guess i know a little more than i think i know ha ha... what you're referring to is something like "parallels" on MAC OS , i used to use that back in the day when our design room was mac-based, to run windows apps within the mac, so i kinda understand the concept....but that seems a little unpredictable for me... i have already started downloading Ubuntu Server... i think i'll just build the ubuntu server, and keep the windows server just in case...
so here starts my Linux-Learning-Curve...

[madmind]

Samba is the linux file sharing program that you can use to integrate with clients running windows. If you go to \\IP_Address of a server running samba you will access it like any windows machine. You can set it up with permissions, user names, etc.
You can use rsync to another linux server on a remote site as backup. You can tell rsync to run at eg. 8pm when no one is working to copy it over the internet to the backup server. Or you can just run hardware Raid5 on a true server, if one drive fails you pull it out, replace it and the the server to rebuild the missing data. If you really want to can even run raid 6 for if 2 drives fail at the same time. If you are worried about the server getting stolen you can back up the data to an external drive daily/weekly.
Running VM on winXP hosting a server sounds like something asking to go wrong. I believe in using the right tool at the right time. WinXp is not a server OS no matter how you look at it. The current XP machine most likely don't even have VT extensions on its CPU. The only windows XP "server" in our company is the one I don't do touch, the boss likes it and if it gives trouble he can fix it. Windows Server 2000, 2003 and 2008 is another matter entirely.
A proper NAS will cost around R35K without drives and if data is critical you won't use a cheap 5k piece of Dlink, Netgear, Edimax crap.

ok, so that sounds quite do-able... please forgive my ignorance on the topic, but is SAMBA an integrated part of Ubuntu Server, or is it 3rdParty? i'm actually quite excited about all of this now, guess i just put it all off too long... to be quite honest, i'm quite against that XP server, and always have been, but the boss is the boss, so hey... what can one do right? I'd actually prefer RAID to NAS, i guess i'm gonna go that route now...

So regarding filesystems. Is windows FAT/NTFS compatible with Linux, or does it have its own filesystem? i would like to use the same drives from the XP server in the Linux server.....

[madmind]

+1 on the "cheap" NAS. We've got a 4TB (3TB RAID 5) Western digital one on the network to store ISO's, monthly backups, articles etc and it's just not fast enough for more than a few users.

I think you need to have a talk to the boss, spend some money and get a proper server setup going.

Hello again Hobojvr

Sadly, you know how the corporates are, they want all the functionality but refuse to lay out the capital... they just don't/don't want to know what it takes to make these systems work.... and its usually us minions that have to constantly pull magic out our behinds to make things work...

but yeah, thats the end of my ranting

cheers guys, have a good monday
madmind

[Ron2K]

So regarding filesystems. Is windows FAT/NTFS compatible with Linux, or does it have its own filesystem? i would like to use the same drives from the XP server in the Linux server.....

Linux systems can handle FAT32 just fine. Historically, they haven't been that good with NTFS, although support nowadays is a lot better than it used to be.

Keep in mind that only the operating system itself cares about the file system format; the file sharing stuff built on top of that generally doesn't. It's perfectly acceptable to format your Linux drives as, say, ext3 - it's support for the SMB protocol (and its relatives) on both ends that's important here.

[madmind]

Thanks Ron2k and everybody else for replies.

[Nuke]

Only saw your post now.
Samba is 3rd party software, but is it part of the official Ubuntu server. It means you can install a tried and tested version of samba on Ubuntu by typing "apt-get update" and then apt-get install samba" in your console.
Btw got my server parts today. 2x 2TB, 2x 300GB and 2x 80GB drives for the new server. Now to get a working cd-rom.....

[madmind]

Only saw your post now.
Samba is 3rd party software, but is it part of the official Ubuntu server. It means you can install a tried and tested version of samba on Ubuntu by typing "apt-get update" and then apt-get install samba" in your console.
Btw got my server parts today. 2x 2TB, 2x 300GB and 2x 80GB drives for the new server. Now to get a working cd-rom.....

Thanks Nuke. i'd have been scratching my head trying to figure that out. just waiting for some free time to set up the linux server... keep you guys posted.
-Nice... if you were nearby i'd donate one, have a few lying around. best of luck with that project. let me know how it pans out.

Cheers
madmind

[Nuke]

Server is running, with 4 drives shared and an 80GB for the OS. Samba configuration took me 15min. Building the PC, formating, mounting, finding cd rom, finding out I can't use cd-rom because my cd is corrupt, finding way to install Ubuntu from flash drive, finding out I can't mkfs on 2 drives at the same time, etc took me around 6 hours.

Going to install a second network card in my PC and a second cards in the server, then I'm going to connect the 2 Gbit ethernets together with a crossover cable. 100Mbit is not fast when you are trying to copy 200GB of data. I think there is still a piece of shielded Cat5e I can use in the office. Also I need to install a fan or 2 to keep the drives cool.

Shout if you need help, I'm not often online at work, but I'll help if I can.

[madmind]

Server is running, with 4 drives shared and an 80GB for the OS. Samba configuration took me 15min. Building the PC, formating, mounting, finding cd rom, finding out I can't use cd-rom because my cd is corrupt, finding way to install Ubuntu from flash drive, finding out I can't mkfs on 2 drives at the same time, etc took me around 6 hours.

Going to install a second network card in my PC and a second cards in the server, then I'm going to connect the 2 Gbit ethernets together with a crossover cable. 100Mbit is not fast when you are trying to copy 200GB of data. I think there is still a piece of shielded Cat5e I can use in the office. Also I need to install a fan or 2 to keep the drives cool.

Shout if you need help, I'm not often online at work, but I'll help if I can.

Glad to hear you have it up and running man, 6 hours... story of my life boet... I hear you on the t/f speed issue, my whole network is 100mbps, its quite crappy to say the least. my workstation backups take a night and part of a day to complete, and thats like no more than 100gb of data at a time, its so bad i actually have to stagger the backups over a few days a month... but thats life i guess. whats the advantage of shielded cable vs unshielded? i've heard it mentioned a few times, but never really paid enough attention.. is the connection prone to data loss due to interference? it may sound like a noob question, but i must admit, i am still new to the finer details of networking... so will you bridge the two connections? please explain to me how that would increase t/f speeds? sounds interesting, i'd love to try that out...
I'd say a fan or two would be a great idea, I've lost much precious data over the years from overheating drives. its actually the reason i invested in a good case. I've observed temperatures as high as 50 degrees Celsius with my old case... now I'm seeing between 21-25degrees Celsius consistently. do you use any disk monitoring software? i'm using a freeware app called "Acronis Drive Monitor"

will definitely be in touch, i will need alot of schooling as i'm a "linux virgin" . i'm also online mostly at home, so it's cool, thanks again for all the help and advice.

Cheers
madmind

[Nuke]

The shielded is not going to make a huge difference in this case, it just because I want to. It is making a big difference when running it up to a radio mast though, and you get interference from the RF cable, many times you can't even connect at 100Mbit, only 10MBit works. Slowly building my home network to enterprise standards.

No, not going to bridge the connections, going to created a new class eg. 10.0.0.1/30 between the PC and the Samba box. The second card on each machine will be connected to my switch. The connection to the switch will be 100Mbit for the internet connection, but the X-over will be running at 1Gbit for file transfer.

I still want to enable SMART on the drives, but I didn't do it on linux yet. It will be good if I can set it to send me mail with diagnostics.

[madmind]

The shielded is not going to make a huge difference in this case, it just because I want to. It is making a big difference when running it up to a radio mast though, and you get interference from the RF cable, many times you can't even connect at 100Mbit, only 10MBit works. Slowly building my home network to enterprise standards.

No, not going to bridge the connections, going to created a new class eg. 10.0.0.1/30 between the PC and the Samba box. The second card on each machine will be connected to my switch. The connection to the switch will be 100Mbit for the internet connection, but the X-over will be running at 1Gbit for file transfer.

I still want to enable SMART on the drives, but I didn't do it on linux yet. It will be good if I can set it to send me mail with diagnostics.

ok cool, last time i checked there are no big RF transmitters anywhere nearby anywhere i'd ever be. I checked the cable i'm using now, it has some foil-like material covering the cores, so i guess thats shielded right?

that makes sense, brilliant idea actually, at the expense of sounding 'noobish' i'd never have thought of doing something like that.

I'm not sure if Acronis DM is available for Linux, but i think i remember seeing an e-mail alert feature in there somewhere. i'll check and get back to you. have you got your server up and running now?

[madmind]

ok i finally got it installed on a free machine, the text-only interface scared me so i installed the gnome GUI using:

sudo apt-get install ubuntu-desktop

The GUI installed fine, starts up fine, but if i try starting anything the whole GUI freezes.. <ctrl><alt><backspace> doesn't work

can someone please explain whats going on? I'm very new to Linux

[Nuke]

Server is working very good, still a few things I want to edit, but nothing major. eg I want to swap its 2GB stick for 2x 1GB stick currently in my PC. But for that I need to restart my PC and I have a record uptime going.....88 days.

The is not much you are going to do in the GUI, all the settings is in text config files. For beginners Nano as a editor will be easier to learn, but Vim is much more powerful if you take time to learn its basics. Why its it freezing I have no idea without being logged in on the server. IMO anything you install have a chance to crash, that is why a server needs the minimum installed components. The only default stuff I install on a server is vim(or Nano if it floats your boat) and openssh-server.

If it crashes does <Ctrl><Alt><F1> and <Ctrl><Backspase> still work?

[madmind]

cool boet, thats good to hear. I'm assuming its DDR2 ram? why not just go buy another 2x1GB, DDR2 ram is so cheap these days... the other alternative is to trash your record

I'm not getting anywhere with the GUI, i just decided to trash it and rough it out text-only. This is quite hard for me, as my memory is terrible. The GUI is stalling intermittently, not just when starting apps... may be the wrong version?? i have no clue. good news is the server is visible and accessible on the network, i'm busy downloading Samba now, then i'll poke around and try figure out how it works

PS: <Ctrl><Alt><F1> and <Ctrl><Backspase> works only before it stalls, after that a hard restart is required

[Nuke]

I brought 2x2GB sticks for my PC and want to swap 2x1GB of my PC for the 2Gb sick in the samba box. Then my PC will have 2x2GB and 2x1GB total.

Don't try to learn all the commands, try to learn the syntax structure. I can't think of any server I configured from memory. I copy, paste and edit everything from previous configs and web pages. Great thing about Putty is that selecting text copies it automatically and right-clicking paste it.

Sounds like the whole machine freezes, not just the processes from the gui. Maybe do a memory test on the box? I had similar issues when a machine had faulty ram.

[Slimshaedy]

If only I knew what everyone was talking about! Keen to learn about servers! And trying to read forums on this blackberry is difficult!
1st thing I'm doing when I get home is reading the article in the old PCF called "demystifying servers"