Should we pay for the news?

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jee
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Should we pay for the news?

Post by jee »

Rupert Murdoch, the owner of News Corp. and The Wall Street Journal, says Google and Yahoo are giant copyright scofflaws that steal the news.
But whether search-engine news aggregation is theft or a protected fair use under copyright law is unclear, even as Google and Yahoo profit tremendously from linking to news. So maybe Murdoch is right.
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2009/0 ... ys-go.html

What do you think?
"Integrity" and "integer" both contain a Latin root meaning "whole; complete." The root sense, then, is that people may be said to be acting with integrity when their beliefs, words, and actions have a sense of unity or wholeness.
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Re: Should we pay for the news?

Post by Anakha56 »

I suppose then that (even if I dont make a profit) I am stealing as well whenever I post a news item from one of the websites? :?

I dont agree with it but cannot explain why... :?
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Re: Should we pay for the news?

Post by RuadRauFlessa »

As soon as news is in the publicized it is in the public domain. If they only link to an article with some or other write-up about the particular news there is nothing wrong with it as they use the original article as a reference and does not merely copy what is there.
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Re: Should we pay for the news?

Post by SykomantiS »

I agree- public domain is public domain.
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Re: Should we pay for the news?

Post by rustypup »

on the one hand, i tend to agree that someone is jilting the AP-type organisations, (the folks actually at the rockface producing the content). on the other, i somehow suspect that murdoch isn't starving as a result.

me, i prefer to hunt down the details of a story as opposed to simply swallowing whatever propaganda murdoch and his cronies happen to be touting today... for that reason alone i believe print media is dying. that and the distressing trend toward "popular news" in detriment of anything actually news-worthy...

there again, when you're selling to a diminishing intellect, this is the natural result...

there is a hidden downside to the financial woes plaguing print media - those voices of ironic observation, parody and humour, (the cartoonists), are being shelved.... :?
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Re: Should we pay for the news?

Post by hamin_aus »

I think if Google are hot linking to their site they should STFU

If Google/Yahoo/etc are reposting their articles content elsewhere, then they should be made to pay or else stopped.
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Re: Should we pay for the news?

Post by RuadRauFlessa »

jamin_za wrote:I think if Google are hot linking to their site they should STFU

If Google/Yahoo/etc are reposting their articles content elsewhere, then they should be made to pay or else stopped.
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Re: Should we pay for the news?

Post by jee »

So what about news aggregators like newster?

http://www.newster.net/Newster/

Do you think that online newspapers should let people pay for the content?
"Integrity" and "integer" both contain a Latin root meaning "whole; complete." The root sense, then, is that people may be said to be acting with integrity when their beliefs, words, and actions have a sense of unity or wholeness.
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Re: Should we pay for the news?

Post by RuadRauFlessa »

jee, The question I think we should ask first is how these people actually make their money. Then we can have a look at how fair the current systems are.
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Re: Should we pay for the news?

Post by jee »

I suppose that is a good question Ruad. Google is the middleman (and as always the middleman controls the market) - if the newspapers decides to opt out - well then their articles will not be crawled and the "click" factor that is suppose to bring in the money will not work (Google search engine - google ads). There might be billions of clicks... but what if its so fragmented that none of those sites earn enough to make a living?

http://www.wordyard.com/2009/04/09/the- ... ewspapers/

I suppose online websites like newspapers use Advertising to make money?

Found this article - however, I think there is oversupply of sites that want a piece of the money pie.

http://www.thebigmoney.com/articles/mon ... h-la-carte
"Integrity" and "integer" both contain a Latin root meaning "whole; complete." The root sense, then, is that people may be said to be acting with integrity when their beliefs, words, and actions have a sense of unity or wholeness.
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Re: Should we pay for the news?

Post by RuadRauFlessa »

Nice article there jee.
The guy actually shares my view on it.
http://www.wordyard.com/2009/04/09/the-opec-plan-for-newspapers/ wrote:None of these realities seems to weigh in the scales for the new wave of “stop giving away the news” visionaries. Today’s entrant, newspaper consultant John Morton, writing in the American Journalism Review, is no different from his predecessors. Morton wants to see all American newspaper websites decide to shut their gates to non-paying visitors on July 4. Just organize this cartel and watch the profits return.

In reality, such a move would be suicidal: it would decimate these sites’ traffic while only marginally increasing their revenue. It would also hasten the evolutionary development of alternative, Web-only news organizations and business models that will be entirely disconnected from the old world of paper.
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Re: Should we pay for the news?

Post by jee »

So Ruad, how will the newspapers keep digging up the news, having the funds to send journalists into areas where they can report back (proper journalists, not Tweeting twits with a cellphone camera) if eveyone out there jump on their content band waggon without so much as a thank you?

Most often you have bloggers NOT acknowledging the original source, often supplying the whole story - therefore the reader will not go to the original. Are they parasites? Do they share the news/information if their whole site is just copypasta?
"Integrity" and "integer" both contain a Latin root meaning "whole; complete." The root sense, then, is that people may be said to be acting with integrity when their beliefs, words, and actions have a sense of unity or wholeness.
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Re: Should we pay for the news?

Post by rustypup »

jee wrote:So what about news aggregators like newster?
or the only aggregator worthy of mention... fark!

AP has a fair point - they're paid by the byline and contract a sizable majority of the field reporters feeding the beast. no reporters means no news. murdoch, et al, have been feeding off AP's efforts for so long now they're assuming fair value on something they've been overcharging for. sod them.

folks reproducing word-perfect copies of AP's product, and they're out there, should burn in lala land.... imagine taking 3 rounds to the chest in some backwater, trekking through 120 k's of rotten vegetation, mosquitos and bad music, submitting your 300 lines, booking into the local cesspool of a health centre to treat your wounds and discovering some idjit has reproduced your story, upping his traffic and advertiser revenue, without paying you... i imagine i'd be a little tempted to create headlines...

<edit>jee beat me to it :oops: </edit>
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Re: Should we pay for the news?

Post by RuadRauFlessa »

I don't condone plagiarism that is just one of the most nasty forms of theft you can find. Taking credit for someone else's work is not on. What they should do is create a kind of news feed specifically for search engines such as google and yahoo. This feed should only have a headline and a short description of the story with the date and such and then the link to the actual posting of the article. Then the publicizing company can close their websites' borders to the rest of the crawler and also take subscriptions for reading the whole story. They could even cater for both world. Have a short version of the story which you can see if you follow the link and if you are a registered version you will get the complete article with all of the details rather than just it's core.
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Re: Should we pay for the news?

Post by jee »

rustypup wrote: <edit>jee beat me to it :oops: </edit>
great minds think alike :)
"Integrity" and "integer" both contain a Latin root meaning "whole; complete." The root sense, then, is that people may be said to be acting with integrity when their beliefs, words, and actions have a sense of unity or wholeness.
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Re: Should we pay for the news?

Post by Zana »

No, the news should be freely available.
If not share as much news and Information you can with Love.
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Re: Should we pay for the news?

Post by WiK1d »

Zana wrote:No, the news should be freely available.
If not share as much news and Information you can with Love.
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Re: Should we pay for the news?

Post by Zana »

WiK1d wrote:
Zana wrote:No, the news should be freely available.
If not share as much news and Information you can with Love.
:love1:
This just in. Your mother died.

With love, Pokkels.
You people... :roll:
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Re: Should we pay for the news?

Post by mina.magpie »

RuadRauFlessa wrote:This feed should only have a headline and a short description of the story with the date and such and then the link to the actual posting of the article. Then the publicizing company can close their websites' borders to the rest of the crawler and also take subscriptions for reading the whole story. They could even cater for both world. Have a short version of the story which you can see if you follow the link and if you are a registered version you will get the complete article with all of the details rather than just it's core.
When I post a news item on other forums, I'll include the title of the story, hyperlinked to wherever, along with the first sentence or two of the introductory paragraph. That way the readers can determine whether they actually want to read this stuff with a glance, but have to click through if they want the details. This seems entirely fair to me. I am not plagiarising, I am merely perpetrating the digital equivalent of telling people "Wow! Check THIS out!" If Murdoch and his ilk now wanna go and propertise even that - well, I think that's quite ridiculous. News aggregators do the exact same thing.

The real problem here is that Murdoch doesn't like the level of competition these aggregators introduce: Instead of reading one or two articles on a specific story, and being locked into a particular publication via subscription, you literally have access to hundreds, which makes it much easier to pick and choose and find the publication you like, and then tend to stick with them. So suddenly the newspapers now actually need to really work at building reader loyalty.

Of course, if he doesn't like it, he's more than welcome to hide his newspapers behind account access and lock readers in with subscription fees. But then, every online newspaper that's tried that has failed because they forgot that it's not the people who buy the papers that pay the bills, it's the people who advertise in them, and to draw those folks in, you need reader traffic.

Far from stealing, aggregators HELP these news companies. The fact that they profit a bit in the process doesn't change that, and now wanting that slice too only shows how bloody greedy Murdoch and Turner and all these other a%$ses are. If he pushes this, all he'll be doing is cutting off his own nose to spite his face.

And in answer to the OP: No. We shouldn't. It might be necessary that we pay for the medium by which the news reaches us (a copy of the paper/broadband access/whatever) but news is not original creative work, and should not be classified as intellectual property. Events and news of those events belong to everybody.

Mina.
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Re: Should we pay for the news?

Post by RuadRauFlessa »

mina.magpie, nice point of view and well stated. If you check my other comments on P1 you will notice that I have said as much.
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Re: Should we pay for the news?

Post by rustypup »

mina.magpie wrote:Far from stealing, aggregators HELP these news companies.
on the face of it, this appears to make sense, until we think it through and discover that news stories don't fall fully formed into the editor's lap. the news is collected, collated and verified by any number of folks who do so not out of some sense of social responsibility and goodwill, but with some expectation of being paid for their efforts.

aggregators, those reproducing complete excerpts, reaping in revenue through advertising using the labours of others are bottom-feeding scum.
mina.magpie wrote:Murdoch and Turner and all these other a%$ses
pay said reporters, editors and researchers - unless we're lumping these reporters, editors and researchers under the 'a%$ses' moniker?
mina.magpie wrote:No. We shouldn't.<...>news is not original creative work, and should not be classified as intellectual property.
make you a deal... you go spend a month or so in some warzone piecing together something for the wire, or perhaps face litigation, threats of physical violence and zero income for a month or so when chasing down a story on corruption, then come back and make these broad sweeping statements about how much you consider your 'un-original creative work' to be worth... :/

just another point of view to consider when arguing for 'free news'...

(in general and not aimed at anyone in particular...)
this skewed sense of entitlement amuses me... we are entitled to what we can afford - this silly attitude of "we should just get it all for free" is, frankly, repugnant to me...
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Re: Should we pay for the news?

Post by mina.magpie »

RuadRauFlessa wrote:nice point of view and well stated. If you check my other comments on P1 you will notice that I have said as much.
Thank you. I think Rusty disagrees though. :mrgreen:
rustypup wrote:this skewed sense of entitlement amuses me... we are entitled to what we can afford - this silly attitude of "we should just get it all for free" is, frankly, repugnant to me...
Well, I suppose it all boils down to what kind of a society we want to live in, and as is usually the case with most political/economic questions, it kinda boils down to a conflict between individualism and collectivism.

My personal take on it has always been that some collectivism is a good thing. After all, social animals form communities towards mutual advantage - they can hunt bigger game, there's safety in numbers, young can be raised communally, etc. The moment those advantages become less than the cost of being a part of that community, the community disintegrates. So it makes sense to me to ensure that a society makes provision to meet the most basic needs of all its members, and to ensure a certain set of basic rights for all. It makes for a more stable, more durable society, which benefits all of us. IMHO, access to news is a basic need, seeing as it has direct survival impact.

The counter argument of course is that individualism breeds excellence, while collectivism causes stagnation. An individualist approach favours competition through capitalism, which in turn makes for quicker advances in science and technology, greater efficiency etc. It also fosters a strong work ethic in it's members in that they every need must be met through struggle, or by sacrificing some other resource.

The dark side of individualism though is a boom-and-bust economy, sociopathic business practices like dumping and child labour and wage slavery, a widening gap between rich and poor, and many other ills. Most of all, individualism causes instability, which is never good for a society in the long run. (of course, neither is stagnation)

Each side has its merits, both have flaws. I don't think that anybody is arguing that we should "get it all for free", but collectively providing for "some" things makes sense to imbue our society with that underlying stability. As with most things, I think, the best case lies somewhere in the middle.

As to the journalists and editors and such - I think they are some of the most awesome people around. They make a real contribution to the world by holding power to account for its actions (in theory) . What we have today though is NOT that situation. Power OWNS the news, and to them it's just a question of maximising profit. The actual producers of the news get paid pathetic salaries while the margins that get added to the news end up going to share-holders. To me though journalism is akin to teaching or nursing or policing in its value to society, and it should be handled in the same way. Basic education, basic healthcare, policing - they're all considered basic human rights, and consequently most societies at least try to provide those things to everybody. Access to news should be the same - it is the Fourth Estate, after all, an integral part of modern democracy. Corporations are more than welcome to provide "premium" services at a cost, like private schools and security companies and such do, hiding their content behind walls, but then they shouldn't complain when their advertisers migrate to where the readers/watchers/listeners are. If Murdoch doesn't want his content on Google, it's a simple enough process to block the crawlers.

Mina.
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