Religion Fact or Fancy

Post by **Anakha56** » 19 Aug 2004, 09:15

I feel that there is no massive difference between the two. Both of them you need alot of faith for them to work, the guy who found gun powder had to have alot of faith the first time round that he would not get blown up to pieces when new religions get started you have to have alot of faith not only in yourself but what you believe in because you never know if the poeple are going to accept it or reject it. So on the point there both the same. anyone with different views?

Post by **Kronos** » 19 Aug 2004, 09:19

Last-Attacker wrote:
HarryPutter wrote:Only one thing though - Vampires do not exist.

RuadRauFlessa wrote:Or so you want to believe
Have you ever seen one? According to the "legends" vampires are physical beings with extraordanary powers. Have you ever seen any people with such characteristics? Vampires are only made up stories from who knows when and you claim that they are real.
...

???
You claim that God is real don't you!?! How is that different?

Sorry, I don't want to start a fight, it's just this kind of reasoning is what really gets me about Christians. You claim all these fantastic, near impossible things about God, Yet no-one has ever seen him, and there is no more proof of the existance of God (Don't get me wrong, there is no conclusive proof AGAINST His existance either.) than there is for the existance of flying pink unicorns. Do you believe in Flying Pink Unicorns? I don't think so. And to tell you the truth, neither do I. But that's exactly why I don't believe in God either.

Dr_Jung · Post by **Dr_Jung** » 19 Aug 2004, 09:32

The point of lifestyles as in the example mentioned by Kher-za are far more complex than just comparing an engineer to an artist. Their very make up will account for the different perceptions that they display. The attributes, spatial in the case of the artist and numeric (very broad) in the case of the engineer, depend on many factors. Among these are environmental, hereditary, demographics etc. This is too complex to really detail here and it would be best to read up on it oneself if you want to know more!

GreyWolf · Post by **GreyWolf** » 19 Aug 2004, 09:39

Kher, I think you have it wrong buddy...

technical people can be artistic, just think of the aesthetics that go into a building, think of automobile design...

And artistic people can be technical, I am sure the animators at Pixar really need to know their hrdware in order to create their art.

I don't think artistic sense and technical know how are mutually exclusive...

Last-Attacker · Post by **Last-Attacker** » 19 Aug 2004, 09:40

Kronos wrote: You claim that God is real don't you!?! How is that different?

Sorry, I don't want to start a fight, it's just this kind of reasoning is what really gets me about Christians. You claim all these fantastic, near impossible things about God, Yet no-one has ever seen him, and there is no more proof of the existance of God (Don't get me wrong, there is no conclusive proof AGAINST His existance either.) than there is for the existance of flying pink unicorns. Do you believe in Flying Pink Unicorns? I don't think so. And to tell you the truth, neither do I. But that's exactly why I don't believe in God either.

And this is what sometimes makes me upset about you guys! I've seen the way God works! I have no doubt in my mind of His existence because He showed me a lot of Himself (not physically!), His character, His miracles.

Do you believe in Flying Pink Unicorns?

Man, don't go overbord here! Thats going a little bit extreme. God is not a fairytale!

You have no idea how He had helped me off stress and depression, when no person was there for me ... He was! I know, because I don't wake up in the mornings worrying about little to big things. There was times when our family went through financial worsts, and wondered if we would have food to put on the table. But God, was always there! He made sure that we wouldn't go to bed hungry. People are too occupied to proove God's existance through science, etc. but for you to have a home, food, etc. isn't that enough proof? Isn't security in your home a gift, blessing? No, people take things for granted because they think they've accoplished it.

I've seen a lot of movies where people are atiestic untill a bad moment hits... who's the first one they call to? "God! Help me!". Then God helps them in a miraculous way and they just say afterwords : "God doesn't exist! There's a perfect scientific explanation to what happened". God never exists untill you're in need!

I don't have to proove His existance and neither should you! You can't see Him physically because He lives in a spiritual realm but by Faith you can know that He is there! So lets stop this fighting and become friends. If you don't believe in Him, thats up to you! Just don't go about the vampires and unicorn stuff (since in the legents they can be touched and seen but God cannot be touched nor seen unless He wants to be!)

Post by **Kronos** » 19 Aug 2004, 09:58

Hey man, As I've said before, I've no Quarrel with you personally. Our Beliefs are OUR beliefs.

I just want you to see some things from my point of view. You keep stating everything from the point of view of "THERE-IS-UNDOUBTABLY A-GOD".

Can you for a moment get in my shoes and imagine that there is No God?

You say that in troubled times, when you get out of it, it is God that helped you out. Just as you see Proof for God in all of creation, when I see science as the cause.
I too have survived VERY troubled times. (I'm not trying to turn this into a "I-grew-up-poorer-than-you" contest.) For our family, we had to spend nights without a place to sleep because we were thrown out of our apartment, which we couldn't afford anymore. Some nights there was nothing to eat! But my parents prayed! A million times a day, and kept believing that God will be there for us. But what got us back on our feet? We worked our butts off! 16 hours a day, and my parents are STILL struggling.

Anyway, I've got the education that I needed to get where I am today because of a Christian lady that sponsored my studies. And therefore I'm eternally grateful. Yet it still doesn't make me believe that there is a God. Just that some people still have some goodness in them for whatever reason.

With or without religion, you will get good men doing good things and evil men doing evil things. But for good men to do evil things, that takes religion.

Anyway. Lets put our behinds in the past and be friends! Agreed?

Last-Attacker · Post by **Last-Attacker** » 19 Aug 2004, 10:04

Man, everytime I look at your avetar (which changes from time to time) I imagine you as a totally diffrent person Kronos. Don't ask me why.

Anyway, you have to find God yourself if you want to believe that He is there. I can only point you the way.

Kronos wrote:Anyway. Lets put our behinds in the past and be friends! Agreed?

Well yes, lets be friends!

EDIT: Just a last note : Wasn't it your parents prayers that got them the job? Anyway... cool ave!

Post by **Anakha56** » 19 Aug 2004, 10:21

Just on a side note what does everyone think of the song done by Joan Osborne What if God was one of us? I think its a really insightful song.

kailinin · Post by **kailinin** » 19 Aug 2004, 10:56

hmm, yes it was, and there's also a rip off of it by wierd al titled what if god smoked cannabus.

Dr_Jung · Post by **Dr_Jung** » 19 Aug 2004, 10:57

Kronos is entitled to his beliefs just as I am, I find though that some arguments put forward by atheists to be rather ethereal and not always logical, Bertrant Russel is a case in point. Indulge me for a few moments:

The atheist’s dilemma is that an atheist is a person who denies the existence of a God. A little reflection, however, reveals that the atheist’s position is indefensible. The only way anyone can prove no God exists is to be God himself.
Ponder on this; the total amount of knowledge any single human possesses is infinitesimal compared to the vastness of the universe and the immeasurable amount of information it contains. A person would have to be omnipresent {present everywhere at once) and omniscient (have all awareness and understanding) in order to have enough information to know that no deity exists. And these are the very attributes that are a part of most of most concepts of God! Hence, no finite human being can prove God does not exist because God may very well exist beyond one’s comprehension or experience.
Of course this fact stops few atheists from arguing against the existence of God. Rather than admitting (or even recognising) the irrationality of their own position, many atheists attempt to remove the rationality of the Christian position. They often put Christians on the defensive by insisting believers in God are obligated to prove He exists, rather than atheists bearing the burden of proving God does not exist. These atheists argue that because they don’t believe in God, because their belief is negative, they don’t have to martial any arguments in their favour.
George Smith says:
“Proof is applicable only in the case of positive belief. To demand proof of the atheist, the religionist must represent atheism as a positive belief requiring substantiation. When the atheist is seen as a person who lacks a belief in a god, it becomes clear that he is not obligated as a person to “prove” anything. The atheist “qua” atheist does not believe anything requires demonstration; the “designation” of atheist tell us, not what he believes to be true but what he does not believe to be true. If others wish for him to accept the existence of a god, it is their responsibility to argue for the truth of atheism – but- the atheist is not similarly required to argue for the truth of atheism.”

Consequently, in the atheism versus Christianity debate, atheists claim that the “burden of proof” is on the Christian; strange logic but that is their way!

Read this with the knowledge that this is a debate and that no offence should be taken!

kailinin · Post by **kailinin** » 19 Aug 2004, 11:06

that does make you think doesnt it.

Post by **Kronos** » 19 Aug 2004, 11:25

Good reasoning Doc, but I do feel that you have posted it from a biased Point of view. Christians too believe that we (atheists) should prove that God does NOT exist, because their faith doesn't REQUIRE proof.
Just as much as we cannot prove that God does not exists, you cannot prove that he does. If there were undeniable proof either way then there would only be one religion.

I don't agree on the fact that Atheists often put Christians to defend themselves. Christians are the ones who go about trying to convert everyone. Atheists on the other hand don't care what you believe in, as long as you leave us out of it. So we have to defend ourselves constantly because MANY (NOT ALL) Christians feel we are stupid and on the rong path and should be helped onto the right path for our own good. And as we all know, the best form of defense is Counter-Attack.

The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy wrote:"I refuse to proove that I exist", says God. "For proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing".
"But", says man. "The Bable Fish is a dead givaway, Isn't it? It prooves you exist and so therefore, by your own reasoning, you don't. QED".
"Oh Dear", Says God. "I havn't thought of that". And promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

That quote actually sums it up for me. If you take everything away from both parties (Theists and Atheists), Logic, Reasoning, History, Science. Then the Christians can always fall back on their faith! The last thing usually said in a religios argument by the christians is this: "God exists whether you think so or not. All you need to do is believe."

wizardofid · Post by **wizardofid** » 19 Aug 2004, 11:35

Now on the lighter side of things

Four Catholic ladies are having coffee together. The first one tells her friends, "My son is a priest. When he walks into a room, everyone calls him 'Father'. The second Catholic woman chirps, "My son is a bishop. Whenever he walks into a room, people say, 'Your Grace'." The third Catholic woman says smugly, "My son is a cardinal. Whenever he walks into a room, people say, 'Your Eminence'." The fourth Catholic woman sips her coffee in silence. The first three women give her this subtle "Well...?" She replies, "My son is a gorgeous, 6'2", hard-bodied stripper... Whenever he walks into a room, people say, 'Oh my God...'."

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Q. What's the difference between Jesus and a painting?
A. It takes only one nail to hang a painting.

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There's this old priest who got sick of all the people in his parish who kept confessing to adultery. One Sunday, in the pulpit, he said, "if I hear one more person confess to adultery, I'll quit!" Well, everyone liked him, so they came up with a code word. Someone who had committed adultery would say they had "fallen".

This seemed to satisfy the old priest and things went well, until the priest died at a ripe old age. About a week after the new priest arrived, he visited the Mayor of the town and seemed very concerned. The priest said, "you have to do something about the sidewalks in town. When people come into the confessional, they keep talking about having fallen." The Mayor started to laugh, realizing that no-one had told the new priest about the code word.

Before the mayor could explain, the priest shook an accusing finger at the mayor and said, "I don't know what you're laughing about, Your wife fell three times this week."

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Q. What did the Roman soldiers say to Christ as they were nailing him to the cross?
A. Cross your legs we only have one nail left"

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A man joined the priesthood. The order he joined could not speak for 7 years. Then they could only say 2 words. The first 7 years passed and they went into a small room. His 2 words were "too cold". The next 7 years passed and they took him back into the small room and his 2 words were "bad food".

The next 7 years passed and they took him back into the small room and his 2 words were "I quit". Good they said, "all you have done is complain."

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A priest is walking down the street one day when he notices a very small boy trying to press the doorbell on a house across the street. However, the boy is very small, and the doorbell is placed at normal adult height, and the little fellow just can't reach. After watching the boy's sorry efforts for some time as he moves closer to the boy's position, the priest steps smartly across the street, walks up behind the little fellow and, placing one hand kindly on the child's shoulder, leans over the boy and gives the doorbell a solid ring.
Crouching down to the child's level, the priest smiles benevolently and asks, "And now what, my little man?"

To which the urchin replies, "Now we run like Hell!"

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Jesus walks into a hotel, tosses three nails on the front desk and says, "Hey, can you put me up for the night?"

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Jesus, hanging on the cross, spots Peter in the crowd at the bottom of the hill. "Peter," he calls. "Peter." Peter hears his name and replies, "I hear, Lord, I'm coming," and starts up the hill toward the cross. A Roman guard blocks Peter's way and says, "Stop, or I'll cut off your arm." But Peter says, "I must go on, my Lord is calling me," and tries to pass the guard, who cuts off his arm with a sword.

Jesus calls again, "Peter, Peter...", so Peter continues, bleeding and in terrible pain, up the hill toward the cross. Another guard blocks his way and says, "Stop, or I'll cut off your other arm." Peter ignores this, saying, "I must go on, my Lord is calling me." As Peter tries to pass the second guard, the guard cuts off his other arm with his sword. Jesus calls again, "Peter...," so Peter, getting weak from the pain, continues up the hill. A third guard blocks his way and says, "Stop, or I'll cut off your leg." Peter says to the guard, "I must go on, my Lord is calling me." As Peter tries to continue up the hill, the guard cuts off his leg. Peter falls in a heap of pain and blood, but still manages to push and drag himself up the hill toward the cross with his one remaining leg. Jesus calls again,

"Peter... Peter..." Peter replies, "I hear, Lord, I'm coming." Another guard steps in front of Peter and says, "Stop, or I'll cut off your other leg." Peter squirms top try to pass the guard, so the guard cuts off Peter's other leg. In excruciating pain, Peter uses sheer willpower to drag his mutilated body to the base of the cross.

Panting, he raises his eyes toward Jesus and says, "I am here, Lord. I have answered your call. Jesus looks down at Peter and says, "Peter... I can see your house from here!"

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Q. Who was the greatest financier in the Bible?
A. Noah. He was floating his stock while everyone else was in liquidation.

Post by **Anakha56** » 19 Aug 2004, 11:38

That was great Wiz

but expect some people not to see the funny side of it.

kailinin · Post by **kailinin** » 19 Aug 2004, 11:47

Kher-za · Post by **Kher-za** » 19 Aug 2004, 12:52

GreyWolf wrote:Kher, I think you have it wrong buddy...

technical people can be artistic, just think of the aesthetics that go into a building, think of automobile design...

And artistic people can be technical, I am sure the animators at Pixar really need to know their hrdware in order to create their art.

I don't think artistic sense and technical know how are mutually exclusive...

ok, you got me there. i didn't mean that engineers don't have any artistic capabilities, i was actually referring to their state of mind concerning religion and spiritual growth. from what i've seen this isn't a very large factor in their lives.

as the doctor mentioned, the subject is much more complex than i portrayed it, i just wanted to give you a rough picture of what i wanted to explain.

thanx for the input!

Dr_Jung · Post by **Dr_Jung** » 19 Aug 2004, 13:06

Wiz, Wiz, Wiz, that is really hard line!

Kher-za · Post by **Kher-za** » 19 Aug 2004, 13:27

wizard..that was kinda funny but very disrespectfull at the same time. 8O

wizardofid · Post by **wizardofid** » 19 Aug 2004, 13:33

But it was funny....

Post by **Anakha56** » 19 Aug 2004, 13:41

Two ways to prove atheism

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... heism.html

Dr_Jung · Post by **Dr_Jung** » 19 Aug 2004, 14:00

Seldom in my long and adventorous life have I read such a diatribe of absolute bullsh@t! I will answer this idiot in some detail when I get the time.

kailinin · Post by **kailinin** » 19 Aug 2004, 14:05

i may not be a christian but i agree with the doc.

Last-Attacker · Post by **Last-Attacker** » 20 Aug 2004, 07:16

Dr_Jung wrote:Seldom in my long and adventorous life have I read such a diatribe of absolute bullsh@t! I will answer this idiot in some detail when I get the time.

Agree with you Doc! Most of the jokes just was totally blasphemous!

Dr_Jung · Post by **Dr_Jung** » 20 Aug 2004, 08:38

LA, just to sort out who I am calling an idiot, it is no one on this forum, I would never do that! The idiot I am referring to is Quentin Smith who put up an infantile argument claiming that he can prove atheism! While I agree about the jokes, Wiz is a good guy and did not mean any harm.

Last-Attacker · Post by **Last-Attacker** » 20 Aug 2004, 11:11

Oh, becuase when you said

Dr_Jung wrote:Wiz, Wiz, Wiz, that is really hard line!

and

Dr_Jung wrote:Seldom in my long and adventorous life have I read such a diatribe of absolute bullsh@t! I will answer this idiot in some detail when I get the time.

I thought you meant Wiz. But still Wiz, I don't know where you got those jokes, it may be funny to you guys but it really isn't the kind of thing to kid around with!