Bluray vs DVD - FOR THE LOVE OF DETAIL!

[StarBound]

So like most people on the forum I have been gaming for most of my life. PC gamer, console gamer, the only difference was one was a keyboard and mouse and the other a game pad. As time went by I went from a pc with 320x240 to 800x600 to resolutions that were higher than SD but never known as HD until a few years back. And that's what this is about.

I've for a 23" 1920x1080 led screen. Very nice. Then I have a 32" 1080p HDTV and a 40" 1080p HDTV. When playing standard definition vs high definition content next to each other the detail differences are apparent. But I was sitting tonight watching Tangled on bluray and started wondering what do I actually see more than I use to. And the next question as I was trying to follow colour changes in the grass was does it really matter? Is it better to have HD content vs SD content? But it doesnt stop there.

My current setup for watching blurays are: PS3, logitech z5500, Samsung UA40C5000 40" LED. Ofcoarse I am using a hdmi cable to the tv and a optical cable to the speakers but I am curious to the effect the PS3 might have on video playback.

I am pretty sure that PS3 is upscaling standard video to HD resolutions but what impact would that have on the final quality of the movie. Eg how much different does a 1080 movie look compared to a 720 movie compared to a standard 480 movie and then its upscaled counter parts? And after all has been said and done how much of the detail gets lost as you watch? Staring at a still picture isnt the same as staring at a picture that is displayed once for a few split seconds and followed by a barrage of others afterwards.

How much detail is enough? And how much is just too much?

[StarBound]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=811102

Found this with a few compareable screenshots. But sitting near a pc screen vs far from a tv could have a different impact.

WARNING LINK CONTAINS HIGH RES SCREENSHOTS!

[thEnaileDonE]

Too much of a good thing is not enough...

[Sojourn]

Been saying this for years now. That little extra res makes no diff between your experience and mine.

[naughty]

I am pretty sure that PS3 is upscaling standard video to HD resolutions but what impact would that have on the final quality of the movie. Eg how much different does a 1080 movie look compared to a 720 movie compared to a standard 480 movie and then its upscaled counter parts?

i dont want to start an argument here so i will respond rather to the technical aspects but im going to try and discuss in a very non technical manner to simplify a few concepts

you cannot add what is not there - so upscaling SD sources to HD resolution is for a different purpose - if you have a really large screen that you are watching on then what happens is that the scalers built into your TV unit will stretch the picture to fit into the screen .... so when this happens there are gaps between the pixels and hence the resultant picture will be grainy - so basically what the scalers in the PS3 or any other upscaling source is doing is just filling the gaps between the pixels - it isnt adding information that wasnt there but is interpolating and basically guessing what should have been there so it isnt exactly the same as watching something that was natively recorded in high definition (1080p)

the picture will look better to your eyes because now you cannot discern the missing pixels because thy are seemingly filled up but the problem is that the detail then isnt as sharp as it should be

if you have a smaller screen and you watch from a fair distance away then you wont really see too much difference between 720p and 1080p - but if you follow THX recommendations then definitely you will begin to discern these differences as an example for my distance of around 4 metres away from the screen THX recommends a 60 inch screen which i definitely cannot afford right now so i got myself a 50 incher but if i had a 60" screen then with 1080p material id definitely be able make out the extra detail as compared to watching the same thing in 720p ...... but instead if i had a 32 inch screen there in place of the 50 incher i would definitely not be able to make out the difference because the screen is a fair bit smaller and i am far enough away from the screen for my eyes to average the pixels out to look closer together so any missing pixels dont really matter and i dont notice the graininess in the smaller resolution

so really the experience depends on the size of the screen ie if you have a smallish screen the it doesnt matter - but as you begin to go bigger then it definitely does matter ..... and nowadays with high resolution stuff you can safely go bigger because it does not damage your eyes as much as low resolution and low refresh rates used to with CRT televisions - so to truly experience why you really needed that higher resolution you need a bigger TV/screen than you expected to need

have a look here at THX recommendations

http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-entert ... tv-set-up/

remember that 1 meter is just over 3 feet - so according to that at around 9 feet away (which is still less than 3 metres away) they recommend a 60" TV and most people buy a 40" Tv and thats why they feel that it doesnt matter when it would if they had the right size of TV - a good explanation can be found in these diagrams here





source and detailed explanations of these can be found at

http://carltonbale.com/1080p-does-matter

when you follow the proper recommended sizing then you will definitely be able to see that what you thought previously about not needing this resolution is actually all wrong

again once thing needs to be noted here - this discussion is mostly for blu-ray VS other SD sources - our TV broadcasts are still 720p and there is also another fact of all things graphics in which everything will always look best at its native resolution - so basically if a broadcast is 720p then it will look at its best on a 720p TV - but obviously blu-ray being 1080p it is going to look at its best on a 1080p Tv that is large enough from the distance you sit so you have to purchase your tv and size it up by balancing between its intended purpose ...... most people compromise by buying a smaller TV which is why it doesnt then make too much difference for them but for the people after the ultimate experience you are best off having multiple screens each one sized and specced for its intended purpose

the charts seem to be too big and seem to be getting cut but im not going to resize them cos you can see them at the URL ive posted (and im too lazy to do more work on this cos i know whatever ive said is going to be met with scepticism and in most instances disregarded anyway but its all true so its not me missing out anyway )

[StarBound]

From a pure rez perspective 720p is 1.5x that of 480p while 1080p is more than 2x that of 480p.

But those links you posted are an interesting read. Incidently I am sitting 2.5m away from my 40" and I do get the feeling of being overwhelmed by the size. The 32" gave a more comfortable view.

And 3ft = 1m right? The links you gave has different numbers compared to what I heard your view distance should be. Thx for the info though. I will put it to good use

[RuadRauFlessa]

Who the hell is going to sit 15ft from a 115inc screen... that is just insane....

[naughty]

Who the hell is going to sit 15ft from a 115inc screen... that is just insane....

i would and its definitely not insane - the people in America basically follow these recommendations and we dont really get to because everything is more expensive here ..... most people simply will not afford a TV of the correct size if they really wanted one - 115 inch is basically around about a decent sized projector screen - and ive sat around 5 metres from screens bigger than that or just as big - and the experience is pretty immersive - unfortunately this is South Africa and our preconceptions are based on what we can afford and not based on whats right and wrong

if you get a chance go to a friends place where he is running a 3 metre diagonal screen with a proper HD projector (maybe even a 2k res projector but i havent heard of one of those in SA yet merely cos its really expensive but even with a 1080p projector and a properly designed screen that 3 metre diagonal becomes something you will soon get used to because the picture needs to be as realistic and natural as possible in order for it to be believable and you should not be able to see the sides of the screen ie it shouldnt seem as if its a finite picture but it should seem like a moment that you are living in and thats what the ultimate experience is about and why HD and better technologies get created

the problem is that we are living in a day and age where guys get impressed with cheap laptops and cellphones playing movies just because they are cheap and then everything becomes about quantity ie how many crappy files can i fit in my hard drive instead of the quality of the experience ie how good can i make it seem until it seems almost real and i just cannot fathom that attitude of the ipod and stupid small screens on cellphones being considered awesome when they are just IMHO an abberation to the concept of quality

remember that those recommendations in the links i have provided are based on THX (remember George Lucas - he is the guys who has made many movies that were way ahead of their time so it can be taken for granted that he knows what he is talking about) and SMTPE measurements - so its got a basis in science and are not just thumbsuck figures as most people will give you when trying to convince you to buy the goods they are peddling and in this case the goods being the TV's they sell - also remember that the viewing distances differ at different resolutions

given that as i have said before i have experienced 120" screens from 5 metres away i actually feel my 50" TV to be extremely small for pure HD viewing and as i have stated above the people who feel it makes no difference are the guys who always will have the smallest screens - but the pure performance of the higher res is only demonstrated when you are sitting at the correct distances - and those are basically what my links show

The 32" gave a more comfortable view.

its comfortable because it is what you are used to - does that mean that its correct? ....... you will always be as comfortable as your point of reference allows you to be until you really experience the real thing and your point of reference then shifts ie if you keep watching at those specified distances you will eventually find that your old TV seems too small for you - it takes me just a few days to get used to the size but i definitely notice the better quality as the screen gets bigger

[StarBound]

The reason I prefered the 32" was because the action was more centered. The bigger the screen the more to the offset the action is. For the odd reason pc I can stand it. But when sitting far away the bigger the screen the more it annoys me.

Nature isnt limited by pixils and that is why I wonder what the max distance is from a source with X size and Y resolution before it becomes indistinguishable. Like I said at an arms length a 23" 1920x1080 is nice and mostly smooth. so it does leave me wondering how far I could sit from a 40" untill I can no longer tell the difference between 1080p and lower resolutions.

[naughty]

so it does leave me wondering how far I could sit from a 40" untill I can no longer tell the difference between 1080p and lower resolutions.

not to labour a point BUT thats what those THX and other charts are telling you

[hamin_aus]

Some advice please, naughty...

I sit about 2.5 meters (8-9 feet?) from the screen and our 42" Sony looks rather meh - even HD content.
I was thinking of going 55 or maybe even 60" you can get a decent 55" 3D LCD TV here for about R15000

Are there any brands/makes/models you would recommend?
Ideally I'd like it to have 3D as well.
I don't know if we will have the same range as you guys back in SA - but if you can recommend a few, I'm sure I can find most of them here!

[ryanrich]

I dunno about using these charts as a reference for what size TV to buy. Sure they're accurate if you want to sit and make out every detail, but it just feels uncomfortable to me. I have a 42" and sit about 2.5m away and it feels perfect. I specifically didn't go for the 47" or bigger because it just feels way too big for that space.

[hamin_aus]

42" is not doing it for me at all.

I can get Blu-Ray disks really cheap here and I don't much like the idea of watching them on a 42"

Normal TV is fine at 42" as most of the stuff is 720p here

[RuadRauFlessa]

Naughty. Why I say insane.... a 115inc screen is 2.95m in the diagonal. As a rule of thumb you need to sit at least 3 time that away from the screen in order to protect your eyes from the strain a 2d projected surface causes. Your 15ft is a nice 4.5 meters. Not hardly in the range you need. Also most people's living rooms dictates the size of screen they can comfortably use. So I find that living space is more of an issue than the actual cost of the screen/projector. For that 115inc screen I would allot a whopping 9 meters of space between the screen and a comfortable sitting position.

[RuadRauFlessa]

I dunno about using these charts as a reference for what size TV to buy. Sure they're accurate if you want to sit and make out every detail, but it just feels uncomfortable to me. I have a 42" and sit about 2.5m away and it feels perfect. I specifically didn't go for the 47" or bigger because it just feels way too big for that space.

42 inches = 1.06 meters

3 meter distance should feel comfortable. In some cases that 0.5m you have less is fine but any larger and it would start becoming what you describe.

[naughty]

Some advice please, naughty...

I sit about 2.5 meters (8-9 feet?) from the screen and our 42" Sony looks rather meh - even HD content.
I was thinking of going 55 or maybe even 60" you can get a decent 55" 3D LCD TV here for about R15000

Are there any brands/makes/models you would recommend?
Ideally I'd like it to have 3D as well.
I don't know if we will have the same range as you guys back in SA - but if you can recommend a few, I'm sure I can find most of them here!

follow my color coding to make sense of my replies :

in terms of brands - i would stick to the regular popular brands - they have to be popular for a reason - so Samsung and Sony as well as Panansonic would be topping my lists of brands of TV's that i would personally purchase - thats not to say that other brands are bad - they could sometimes give better features or even last longer but its just like cars - the popular brands will be easier to repair and find spare parts etc just because there are more of them around

im not the biggest fan of 3D but if you must have it then theres nothing bad i can say about it - in fact the only negative thing is lack of content but maybe that affects you less where you are than it would affect us - so yeah no problems with anyone wanting 3D - the other negative is that you need to select a source unit that is 3D capable ie a blu-ray player etc and you also have to make sure that your amplification also is 3D capable ie older HDMI ports will not pass through 3D signals and also HD audio through lack of bandwidth so do all the relevant homework in terms of other ancillary equipment you already have or wish to purchase

the good thing about 3D though is that the bigger the screen the better the experience hence why a large screen will suit your needs perfectly a 55" LCD or even a 50" plasma like the new samsung D series plasma's would be perfect for what you want - blurays will provide a perfect source as long as you have a 3D blu-ray player

i am sure that you guys will be a bit ahead of what we can get here and no doubt it is definitely going to be cheaper too - shipping and duties as well VAT makes everything artificially expensive here

As a rule of thumb you need to sit at least 3 time that away from the screen in order to protect your eyes from the strain a 2d projected surface causes.

im sorry but another way of saying "rule of thumb" is thumbsuck ...... no such rule really exists .....anywhere - and with current resolutions you dont get any eyestrain etc - it all depends on what you are used to and everyone will be used to TV's that are too small because that is all that they have experienced mainly because the bigger ones were too expensive

the story about restricting sizes etc due to eyestrain was because of slow refresh rates and interlacing and 640 x 480 resolution with CRT - but now with progressive screens being the norm the distance is more related to it being an immersive experience - and that comes from the guys who make the movies ..... not the guys who have to sell you a TV - remember that if sales guys aggressively tried to sell you the right size they will sell fewer models because you will leave their store and go to someone who just sells you a smaller cheaper model that you can afford .... so none of them would be interested in you knowing whats right and whats wrong

guys say "i am comfortable with a certain size" because they got themselves used to that size - watch a larger screen TV for two months running and you will then change the story to "i cannot stand the smaller screen because its uncomfortable when i cannot see every small detail and especially more uncomfortable when i see borders around everything that happens on the screen

is it insane when you go to your local ster kinekor and watch such a huge screen .....what about in the IMAX - what about real life - do you see borders around everything thats happening around you - do you bother about whether theres too much contrast or brightness etc

REMEMBER IM NOT TELLING YOU WHAT IS OR ISNT COMFORTABLE FOR YOU BECAUSE THAT DEPENDS ON INDIVIDUAL EXPERIENCE - WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT YOUR CONCEPT OF WHATS TOO BIG OR TOO SMALL IS MOSTLY INCORRECT BECAUSE YOU PROBABLY HAVENT EXPERIENCED WHATS RIGHT FOR YOUR OWN PERSONAL CIRCUMSTANCES YET SO YOU HAVE FORCED YOURSELF TO GET USED TO WHAT YOU ARE CURRENTLY USING (caps lock for emphasis)

as i have said it all depends on whether you are watching real blu-ray at the proper res or downloaded psuedo hi-def (if its compressed it isnt hi-def) from the internet - all the blu-rays ive seen on that three metre diagonal screen looked incredibly awesome and it helped that there was a sound system worth around 1.2 bar playing the sound too ...... and when i went back home everything that i had seemed like it was all just a mess of a compromise - even the 50" screen began to look like it was too small and i felt like that for days ...... thankfully though after a few days that feeling goes away because you adapt as you keep using something regularly and get used to it again

[hamin_aus]

Thanks naughty!
As always a treasure trove of helpful info

[ryanrich]

Yeah damn, sitting 4.5m away from a 115" screen would kill my retinas.

jamin, go for the 50 - 55" range. 60" if you're sitting 2.5m away is gonna require a lot of neck movement...

[naughty]

Yeah damn, sitting 4.5m away from a 115" screen would kill my retinas.

the problem is that you keep telling yourself that ..... in other words you are convincing yourself of that by keeping on saying things like this

BUT

it doesnt really - otherwise everyone who has watched more than a few movies at a cinema would be absolutely blind by now

gonna require a lot of neck movement...

people say that about large computer monitors too - but right now my 27" monitor seems too small to me and my eyes have improved since my last eye test cos my newest pair of glasses have decreased in points ..... and you cannot say i wear glasses because of the size of my screens - ive been wearing those since i was around 7 years old and there was no TV even - at that time .... or at least i didnt have access to one then

[RuadRauFlessa]

Ye like coming out of a cinema every time with a headache.... And no there is nothing wrong with my vision.

[naughty]

Ye like coming out of a cinema every time with a headache.... And no there is nothing wrong with my vision.

if it is so uncomfortable then why do you even go

besides headaches can be caused by many things - coming out of a dark area where there was a concentration of light only in a specific direction into brightly lit venues or even bright sunshine can easily cause this - its then the environment and not the size of the screen

besides i have to tell you at this stage if that conditon persists then you need to consult a doctor and maybe an optometrist because even though you think theres nothing wrong with your vision when have you last done a checkup? your eyes may not be as good as you think they are cos headaches are one of the signs that you are probably trying to strain your eyes to see

also one last point everyone doesnt leave a cinema with a headache unless it was a particularly unpleasant movie - i dont want to guesstimate an amount because frankly any figure i give would be a thumbsuck because ive never counted but most people i know are just fine when they walk out of a cinema .... now if while i was walking out of a cinema and everyone was complaining of headaches as we were walking out then id be worried ..... right now though i certainly am not

[naughty]

last post im going to make on this subject - i dont mean any disrespect but i reckon here we need to draw a line and agree to disagree on this issue - im not basing any of my arguments on opinion so i stand by them since i can provide verifiable links to most of the stuff im saying besides for my opinions on why people buy smaller TV's but that too is based on knowing many retailers who sell TV's for a living (note not the salespeople but the store owners) - i have had my say and im going to leave it as that because otherwise id just be regurgitating things ive already said

so yeah its no problem to me - guys who want to stick to the smaller screens - be my guest and for guys who want the best possible experience that their money can buy them can do the relevant research and go with what they learn from that

its pretty simple really if like me you like the bigger screens AND YOU CAN AFFORD THEM ..... then why not - its up to you to use your cash how you like it and i place a lot of importance to my entertainment and i worry more about quality rather than quantity and hence why the quality of the experience is rather important to me so i would want the best item i can get for its purpose so pretty simple really i have done my own research on this issue and my research indicates that in this instance SIZE DOES MATTER

so thats my story and im sticking to it

EDIT : one last relevant point since the topic states Blu-Ray VS DVD - Blu-ray gets my vote because the picture and audio quality is so far ahead its not even funny .... remember that the electronics industry is somewhere where you will double the amount you spend to get a 2% to 3% improvement on something - so something like Blu-ray that just automatically improves things by even around 5% is actually saving you a fortune in equipment upgrading costs to reach the same level or have the same experience

[StarBound]

The reason I say BD vs DVD is more focused on the proper HD vs SD experience. The most noticeable part is text on your screen. Even with a pc. The higher the resolution, the sharper and better looking the text. Even to the point where you can distinguise the difference between a blur and a letter. But going far and you might get the same effect.

That is why I created this threat to find the sweet spot. You want to sit at a distance that you can see the finest detail and not loose out on it. You also don't want to sit so close that you start seeing the screens pixils.