PCFormat Forum Archive

Yeah hindsight is a painful female dog...

Indeedy

SykomantiS wrote:Also, Dae. I dunno, but if I wanna turn and I overdo it and the rear comes out, logic tells me to turn the steering wheel in the opposite direction- because, y'know, you kinda want to turn in the opposite direction now

How many times have you been in crashes?

Why, you wanna tell me my logic is screwed?
Shoot.

Anakha56 wrote: I r insulted...

and so you should be! you're one of the worst how many dassies have you taken out so far?

to clarify this for all those leaping to silly conclusions, the original study had nothing to do with driving games and tested a minuscule number of gamers.. they then extrapolated their sparse results into "gamers would make better drivers"...

the second study is only marginally better... a selection of 1000 participants were asked a number of leading questions... there is no breakdown of demographics available or even age spread, (young, dumb and full of stupid has always been statistically worse at driving).

ignoring all of this, the sim driving games won't magically improve your spatial awareness, your inner ear isn't being subjected to sudden changes in inertia and your hands and feet aren't coordinating changes in gear/steering/braking... you're waggling a joystick or keyboard... how, then do you imagine this translates into "l33t" driving skills in real life?

i'd love to hear the science behind this thinking...

SykomantiS wrote:Why, you wanna tell me my logic is screwed?
Shoot.

Well if you drive a rear wheel car and you counter-steer it is fine if you know what you are doing but you need a very good feel for the car coupled with reflexes and an uncanny ability to steer the car with the throttle. If you overdo it you are worse off than at the point where you started to over-steer in the first place as the car will simply go into an uncontrolled slide and you will be in a pickle. The easiest way to cure over-steer on a rear wheel drive car is to simply lift off the throttle. This will reduce the power which is causing the rear of the vehicle to have more movement and thus cause the car to go into under-steer.

On a front wheel drive car the whole dynamic is different. If you come off the brakes the car will actually over-steer worse than before as the weight of the car transfers to the rear end which causes it to have more momentum and thus come around faster than the nose. Which is exactly the opposite of what you actually want. What you want is to go on the throttle to cure the over-steer. A front wheel drive car will under-steer under acceleration which is what you need to cure the over-steer you are experiencing. This however is not ideal either since the extra torque you put through the CV joints could severely damage them.

Point being you should know your car well enough not to have the need to react to something like this. Cure over-steer with under-steer rather than trying to correct it by means of turning the wheels.

PS: For heavens sake please don't force yourself into a situation where you have to lean heavily on the brakes while you are in a turn. Nr.1 cause of frustration for me is people that rush onto a corner and then while they are in it just stamp on the brakes. It is amazing how little people actually understand the forces at work. they should make an applied physics course part of the drivers tests. Should cause a couple of eyes to open up.

rustypup wrote:

Anakha56 wrote: I r insulted...

and so you should be! you're one of the worst how many dassies have you taken out so far?

to clarify this for all those leaping to silly conclusions, the original study had nothing to do with driving games and tested a minuscule number of gamers.. they then extrapolated their sparse results into "gamers would make better drivers"...

the second study is only marginally better... a selection of 1000 participants were asked a number of leading questions... there is no breakdown of demographics available or even age spread, (young, dumb and full of stupid has always been statistically worse at driving).

ignoring all of this, the sim driving games won't magically improve your spatial awareness, your inner ear isn't being subjected to sudden changes in inertia and your hands and feet aren't coordinating changes in gear/steering/braking... you're waggling a joystick or keyboard... how, then do you imagine this translates into "l33t" driving skills in real life?

i'd love to hear the science behind this thinking...

Puppy I tend to agree with you. Playing games may increase your ability to make a decision or increase the reflexes but reflexes can be dangerous.

Normal reflexive actions are jerky and could actually cause you to lose control of a vehicle.
Yes you may be able to make a decision faster but do you have the needed knowledge and experience for this to actually influence your decision towards the correct action.

RuadRauFlessa wrote:Puppy I tend to agree with you. Playing games may increase your ability to make a decision or increase the reflexes but reflexes can be dangerous.

Normal reflexive actions are jerky and could actually cause you to lose control of a vehicle.
Yes you may be able to make a decision faster but do you have the needed knowledge and experience for this to actually influence your decision towards the correct action.

Nevertheless, I thank gaming for saving my life the other day when Mr.Golf 6 moved into my lane on the highway. We were doing 120 at the time. I was also right next to him.

RuadRauFlessa wrote:

SykomantiS wrote:Why, you wanna tell me my logic is screwed?
Shoot.

Well if you drive a rear wheel car and you counter-steer it is fine if you know what you are doing but you need a very good feel for the car coupled with reflexes and an uncanny ability to steer the car with the throttle. If you overdo it you are worse off than at the point where you started to over-steer in the first place as the car will simply go into an uncontrolled slide and you will be in a pickle. The easiest way to cure over-steer on a rear wheel drive car is to simply lift off the throttle. This will reduce the power which is causing the rear of the vehicle to have more movement and thus cause the car to go into under-steer.

On a front wheel drive car the whole dynamic is different. If you come off the brakes the car will actually over-steer worse than before as the weight of the car transfers to the rear end which causes it to have more momentum and thus come around faster than the nose. Which is exactly the opposite of what you actually want. What you want is to go on the throttle to cure the over-steer. A front wheel drive car will under-steer under acceleration which is what you need to cure the over-steer you are experiencing. This however is not ideal either since the extra torque you put through the CV joints could severely damage them.

Point being you should know your car well enough not to have the need to react to something like this. Cure over-steer with under-steer rather than trying to correct it by means of turning the wheels.

PS: For heavens sake please don't force yourself into a situation where you have to lean heavily on the brakes while you are in a turn. Nr.1 cause of frustration for me is people that rush onto a corner and then while they are in it just stamp on the brakes. It is amazing how little people actually understand the forces at work. they should make an applied physics course part of the drivers tests. Should cause a couple of eyes to open up.

I'm going to nitpick
While I agree on both scenarios, I do believe fwd over-steer is caused by momentum shifting forward, thus greatly reducing the grip of the rear tyres, which is why you find yourself going sideways.
(like I said, nitpicking)

I'm well aware of all of these things. As a regular user of two wheels, you would be surprised at just how much you actually need to know about counter steering (which is what it comes down to) in order to effectively ride a bike
Contrary to popular belief, bikes (this also goes for normal non-motorized bikes like mountain bikes, bmx, etc) don't turn because the rider is hanging off the side

Now I will agree that counter steering is not the same on 2 wheels as it is in 4, but the fact of the matter is, it's a topic you have to be acquainted with.


Also, Greywolf, while gaming probably does give you faster reflexes (though debatable) experience is what will keep you alive. Have enough close encounters with Mr Golf6 and driving experience and awareness is what will hone your reflexes.

I would agree that it is a good thing to know how but on normal roads you should never need to counter-steer.

RuadRauFlessa wrote:I would agree that it is a good thing to know how but on normal roads you should never need to counter-steer.

In a car, no. But if you tell me that about bikes I will slap you

Well I will leave you to the bikes as I don't drive bikes. I am speaking about 4 wheels not 2.

Now beyond the debate of driving games. Games in general has increased my reaction speed a lot. I say this because when I started playing multiplayer games my reaction time was a lot longer than what it is now. This has indeed helped me in real world situations such as driving or anything that can test a fast reaction such as a falling glass.

And I'm completely with Dae on this topic. I believe racing games can and has helped me before.

Siemens wrote:Now beyond the debate of driving games. Games in general has increased my reaction speed a lot. I say this because when I started playing multiplayer games my reaction time was a lot longer than what it is now. This has indeed helped me in real world situations such as driving or anything that can test a fast reaction such as a falling glass.

And I'm completely with Dae on this topic. I believe racing games can and has helped me before.

I am not contesting whether it can help or not as I do believe it can help as long as you are not a dolt and actually know and can control a car. Playing games only increase reaction and decision making times. You still need to have the ability to actually carry out the decision without mucking it up.

rustypup wrote:

Anakha56 wrote: I r insulted...

and so you should be! you're one of the worst how many dassies have you taken out so far?

None! My only road kill count so far was a weaver bird that decided to fly in front of the SUV while it was traveling at 120 . Silly bird...

well racing sims have improved my theory in advanced driving, but with driving that is all pointless since you dont really have a clutch to deal with in racing sims

RiaX wrote:well racing sims have improved my theory in advanced driving, but with driving that is all pointless since you dont really have a clutch to deal with in racing sims

Exactly.....It just makes you think you are a better driver and that you could drive an F1 car. But in the real world that is not the story.

gamer drivers are the biggest idiots on the road .....full stop - they are arrogant insufferable and overbearing idiots who just arrogantly think that because they are decent at manipulating a keyboard they know everything about a car

the car can kill you and a lot of other people just to prove to you that you are a total retard behind a steering wheel

most gamer drivers are totally reckless and endanger other road users and thats merely because they fail to realize how badly they drive and live with the illusion that they are good drivers

hey ... in a game when you hit a kerb you can just start again but in real life you wreck your car and most likely overturn it on someone elses head .... so all you gamer drivers who think you are good drivers PLEASE grow up and live in a world of reality instead of arrogantly assuming that the game is like a simulator that teaches you how to drive - it isnt