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You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 04 Nov 2010, 14:03
by StarBound
http://www.the-ghetto.org/content/used- ... are-piracy

We have been seeing this coming for some time but it takes someone to put it into perspective to make you wonder which side of the fence you would rather be standing on.
BTW its a wall of text so make some pop corn. I havent read it in detail.

RE: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 04 Nov 2010, 14:16
by Monty
Please change "your" in the title to "You're"

Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 04 Nov 2010, 14:18
by RuadRauFlessa
Monty wrote:Please change "your" in the title to "You're"
Image

Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 04 Nov 2010, 14:49
by wizardofid
So what is new about this, has always been the case with most publishers.

Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 04 Nov 2010, 14:50
by StarBound
And this after changing the goldeneye threads title.

Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 04 Nov 2010, 15:01
by StarBound
If you want to take it to a law perspective then it is as follows:
Game and disc format: Sellable, the physical product can be sold after use.
Game and digital format: Sellable, the product is still tradable under a "deed" so to speak eg a house that changes ownership.
Game DLC: It is sold to an account. The account is still tradable same as digital format, the problem is there is no name change. Essencially you can just sell the experience which is still tied to you as account holder.

The only aspect of the game industry as an consumable product is the experience which cannot be traded. Like food once used it is used. So the format is still tradable but the value your getting from it is different to the next buyer.

If the industry somehow manages make that games are no longer allowed to be sold 2nd hand then the next will be movies. From there onwards it wont take too long say that you actually own part of the company in question. For if the product isnt tradable then it is either leased or rented then it still makes up part of the company. In that sence for every game you buy your buying a portion of the company selling you its work or share in this case.

Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 04 Nov 2010, 15:05
by wizardofid
If you want to take it to a law perspective then it is as follows:
Game and disc format: Sellable, the physical product can be sold after use.
Game and digital format: Sellable, the product is still tradable under a "deed" so to speak eg a house that changes ownership.
Game DLC: It is sold to an account. The account is still tradable same as digital format, the problem is there is no name change. Essencially you can just sell the experience which is still tied to you as account holder.

The only aspect of the game industry as an consumable product is the experience which cannot be traded. Like food once used it is used. So the format is still tradable but the value your getting from it is different to the next buyer.

If the industry somehow manages make that games are no longer allowed to be sold 2nd hand then the next will be movies. From there onwards it wont take too long say that you actually own part of the company in question. For if the product isnt tradable then it is either leased or rented then it still makes up part of the company. In that sence for every game you buy your buying a portion of the company selling you its work or share in this case.
In that sence for every game you buy your buying a portion of the company selling you its work or share in this case
Now if I buy my wife a ring do I get the cow as well? WTH? the conclusion you came to is nothing sort...."what"?

actually food can be resold well in the form of manure for the rose garden you have been planing to make all year, on top of the Ubi soft MD's body that refused to give you part of the company.

Buying part of a company where do you get that logic from?

Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 04 Nov 2010, 16:30
by Prime


I'm sorry, the rest of the thread is lost on me. We've had this debate before :lol:

Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 04 Nov 2010, 16:43
by StarBound
Just read the article.

Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 04 Nov 2010, 16:51
by Prime
StarBound wrote:Just read the article.
TLDR. Way to frikking long!

By the same logic Video Game publishers use to justify crucifying the second hand market games market, we shouldn't sell hardware or Books second hand. It's BS!

Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 04 Nov 2010, 18:05
by DAE_JA_VOO
Well, if you think about it, it makes some sense.

Let's say I'm a developer, and I make an amazing game that both Person A and Person B really want, and would pay for. So, that's, say R400 per player.

Person A buys the game, plays it for a week and finishes it, and then sells it to person B. Person B gets the exact same gaming experience that he would previously have PAID ME R400 for, without paying ME anything. As the Developer, I deserve that money, not Person A. I mean, if Person B went ahead and sold the game, and this continued for another 98 people (hypothetically), that would mean that 100 people have played my game, and I would only have received R400, instead of the R40K I should have been paid.

In the end: Two people have played, and I'd only received the money for one. I don't want to sound like a tool, but this isn't rocket science, guys.

Of course, this is a tough call, because that principle then needs to be applied everywhere (books, music, etc), and then it just gets ridiculous. Content providers like Game Devs, Musicians, and Writers basically need to come to terms with the fact that they're not going to receive as much as they're giving, even though what's happening is technically legal.

Nevertheless, they should stop worrying about this, because platforms like Steam will become the mainstream, and there's no selling of games with Steam.

Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 04 Nov 2010, 19:34
by doo_much
DAE_JA_VOO wrote: I don't want to sound like a tool...
Too late...

Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 04 Nov 2010, 19:40
by wizardofid
doo_much wrote:
DAE_JA_VOO wrote: I don't want to sound like a tool...
Too late...
actually not really he does speak some truth....publishers do loose money, but who cares.?

Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 04 Nov 2010, 19:50
by doo_much
I just typed a response and realised I didn't really give a fart.


Go figure.

A lot of lawyers will get rich out of this.


'And that's all I have to say about that.' ;)

Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 04 Nov 2010, 19:51
by StarBound
It is true they do but there are some games I can only get as second hand titles due to number of publications and such. Eg I cant find Silver or Homeworld Cataclysm anywhere at a reasonable price. Steam doesnt even have them.

There is something you should also factor in. Paid DLC. Developers spend little time on this with the main product already released. DLC is a paid mod, something that fans use to give away for free and with that said no more developement costs on game engine and such you release it with a near 100% profit simply because there isnt much cost behind it. The counter arguement if any is that Value does give some dlc away for free on pc. But this selling games 2nd hand has a root from way back when people swapped nintendo and sega cartrages. If the game was good enough you would go out and buy it.

Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 04 Nov 2010, 22:49
by DAE_JA_VOO
doo_much wrote:I just typed a response and realised I didn't really give a fart.


Go figure.
Well there's no need for that, dude. I'm making some valid points in this discussion; I'm not attacking anyone, nothing. If you don't feel like contributing and just want to insult me, don't waste your time :)

Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 04 Nov 2010, 23:04
by Prime
All that needs to happen is for the greenies to get stuck in and have a go at them for wasting resources rather than promoting a culture of recycling and reuse.

Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 05 Nov 2010, 07:29
by RuadRauFlessa
Hehehe Prime that would be a :lol:

On the other hand it has been illegal to transfer the lisence you are granted of any pc game to anyone else. Just as an example :

Source
http://www.ea.com/portal/pdf/legal/EULA-Crysis.pdf
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Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 05 Nov 2010, 08:05
by rustypup
meh... the corporates are doing what the music industry has done... turned the milking taps on full and whined about the drop-off in sales when the public determines that over-paying for spanking new can be replaced with a reasonable sum on second hand.... boo-#$%^$%^-hoo... :/

games of late have been delivering less and less content, (multiplayer is NOT content), while the unit costs continue to skyrocket. where exactly was this going to end up? :lol: tjops...

there are a number of small development houses out there proving that content delivery at fair value still pays... not that this matters to the management-and-marketing heavy publishing houses... i would love to see some data on how much of the POP price ends up in the dev's pocket... i'd be surprised if it exceeded 20%...

Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 05 Nov 2010, 09:59
by doo_much
DAE_JA_VOO wrote:
doo_much wrote:I just typed a response and realised I didn't really give a fart.


Go figure.
Well there's no need for that, dude. I'm making some valid points in this discussion; I'm not attacking anyone, nothing. If you don't feel like contributing and just want to insult me, don't waste your time :)
Sorry - my comment about you making a tool of yourself wasn't meant to be insulting but rather humorous. As was the one about me not really caring. Reading my posts again I realise that it didn't come across funny at all.

So sorry for insulting you.

And anyway. Wouldn't you just love being a Dremel? :wink:

Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 05 Nov 2010, 10:08
by StarBound
There is 1 sure fire way to kill the 2nd hand market. Make a law forcing a price ceiling of $20 a game. Its too much effort to resell a game at $10 when your shipping charge or rental makes costs more than the $10 you sell the game less for. All my steam games were from specials that are lower than $20. Actually Torchlight was $20 and the rest all ranged from $10 and less.

You can argue it as follows. First month the game can sell at full retail price. The next month the game can sell at half price and the month after at quater price. The problem in that is everyone will start waiting for price drops.

We will continue to swop, trade and sell games if the retail isnt affordable. Gaming is expensive and has been said countless times but the second hand market gives some of us hope. The only thing companies can do is release platimun titles sooner and drop the prices faster. 2nd hand games start selling a week after release these days.

Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 05 Nov 2010, 13:18
by KALSTER
Doo, maybe you should also put a disclaimer in your sig....

:P @ DJV joking

I can understand their point. When you buy the game you buy the right play it. You never own the intellectual property, so it doesn't make sense that you should be able to make money off of the right to be able to play the game. It still sucks though.

Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 05 Nov 2010, 13:25
by rustypup
KALSTER wrote:it doesn't make sense that you should be able to make money off of the right to be able to play the game.
you're not "making money".... if anything, you're partially recouping costs... they got paid for the original.

see, they're whining about a shrinking market, and using this whine to validate the rapidly inflating price-points out there... which is driving more consumers to purchase second-hand, which is shrinking the market even further... it's a laughable approach to business - instead of looking inward, they're preparing to throw litigation, DRM and other restrictions at their paying customers...

it would be funnier if it weren't so insane... :/

Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 05 Nov 2010, 13:30
by KALSTER
you're not "making money".... if anything, you're partially recouping costs... they got paid for the original.
Potato; potato. ;)
see, they're whining about a shrinking market, and using this whine to validate the rapidly inflating price-points out there... which is driving more consumers to purchase second-hand, which is shrinking the market even further... it's a laughable approach to business - instead of looking inward, they're preparing to throw litigation, DRM and other restrictions at their paying customers...
This is true. Like DJV said, Steam-like services are becoming more and more prominent, not that it would stop the piracy racket though.

Re: You're a pirate! You 2nd hand game seller

Posted: 08 Nov 2010, 06:17
by RuadRauFlessa
Come on people the point is moot. Currently according to the contract you agree to when you install the game you do not own anything. You are renting the rights to use the product but you don't own it. You also have no rights to transfer its ownership. Meaning you are not even allowed to give it away least of all sell it. Anything you do against the EULA is punishable by law as it is a criminal act no matter how you feel about it. If you don't like the EULA don't install the game. Easy as that. And for that matter don't buy it. You don't have to play it.