Your Contentious Issue for today:Oath of Allegiance

StarPhoenix · Post by **StarPhoenix** » 13 Feb 2008, 08:53

Cape Town - President Thabo Mbeki has proposed a national oath be introduced in schools.

In his State of the Nation address on Friday, Mbeki outlined the plan as part of his "Business Unusual" approach to South Africa in the years to come.

"We should develop an oath that will be recited by learners in their morning school assemblies, as well as a Youth Pledge extolling the virtues of humane conduct and human solidarity among all South Africans."

Based on the preamble of the Constitution, it was "intended to internalise those values we as South Africans have thought to be important", Education Minister Naledi Pandor told a media briefing in Cape Town on Tuesday.

Pandor said it would be open for public comment "to see if we can live with it" and, depending on the response, children could be heard reciting it by mid-March.

"Those are universal values that you would want any human being to attach themselves to."

Asked if she envisaged objections by parents, she said she hadn't heard of a single South African who had wanted to "opt out" of the Constitution.

She said there would always be people who found fault and "will say that Nkosi Sikelel' i Afrika should be in Polish, etcetera".

"I would be really surprised if people don't want to [recite it]. It speaks to the values we want to have our young people take up."

The pledge reads:

"We the youth of South Africa, recognising the injustices of our past, honour those who suffered and sacrificed for justice and freedom.

"We will respect and protect the dignity of each person, and stand up for justice.

"We sincerely declare that we shall uphold the rights and values of our Constitution and promise to act in accordance with the duties and responsibilities that flow from these rights."

Source:News24.com

What are your views on this?

Slasher · Post by **Slasher** » 13 Feb 2008, 09:08

I would not say that if I was still at school...

"injustices of OUR past" -- Wait, what did I do wrong? Where did I play any part in apartheid?

Also, what the hell kind of a difference does this oath make? It does not make them promise to work hard, not rape/kill/steal etc?

"Those are universal values that you would want any human being to attach themselves to." -- What??!! Since when is it a universal value to accept responsibility for something one had no part in or to admit to wrongdoing in this way??

I'd even go so far as to say I will find a private school and sell my soul to the devil to pay for it, as long as my children need to partake in the joke that is our education system...

Nuke · Post by **Nuke** » 13 Feb 2008, 09:14

I will salute it..............with my middle finger

D3PART3D · Post by **D3PART3D** » 13 Feb 2008, 09:16

I don't know about this n00b oath, but it could prove to have a powerful influence. Pretence becomes reality.

po10cy · Post by **po10cy** » 13 Feb 2008, 09:24

im not sure, the children of today had nothing to do with the past, black or white or any other race....and will this oath apply to only white kids, cause if not then they saying that the "sufferers" of appertheid are also oathing to making injustices of their past...........

to me this is kinda imbedding into the minds of the children, who had nothing to do with the bad past, that they have done bad in the past....i mean cant we all just move on from that, now he is trying to make it part of a oath? its just a way to keep it in the air i think....

imagine it like this, you have a bunch of slaves, and have them recite each day that they are bad, dont deserve freedom, and that the greatest honour they have is serving their master....

i feel the same about this oath as i do hearing about slaves doing a oath like that...its enforcing into the minds of the kids that they have done bad, even tho they werent part of apartheid or did wrong.

Slasher · Post by **Slasher** » 13 Feb 2008, 09:28

Go read a few of the comments on the News24 site.

The average is like this:

1) White Person - "I refuse to let my children say this..."
2) White person - "If they change/remove the first sentence it is fine... "

3) Black Person - "Stuff you whitey's, our country is a democracy and you are only 15% of the populace..."

And no, it is not a racist remark, it is an observation of the comments made by the people of the country... I am not saying all the black people take that kind of attitude, but the majority that replied to that letter had that basic attitude applied...

D3PART3D · Post by **D3PART3D** » 13 Feb 2008, 09:32

Whites make up more than 15% no?

Slasher · Post by **Slasher** » 13 Feb 2008, 09:38

Hauw, if they can say we should sleep earlier to get cleverer, but remember to shower prior to that to keep da viri aweh, they can most likely say we are only 15%, can they not?

jee · Post by **jee** » 13 Feb 2008, 09:40

Anyone been following the news in Australia about saying "i'm sorry?" ?

DAE_JA_VOO · Post by **DAE_JA_VOO** » 13 Feb 2008, 09:46

D3PART3D wrote:Whites make up more than 15% no?

I actually think there are LESS than 15% whites in SA. I remember reading a statistic a when i was in school that had the black population at like 85% (and that's when i was still in school).

Post by **KillerByte** » 13 Feb 2008, 09:46

This oath is a load of crap.

I thought it would be something like the USA pledge of allegiance, but its so not.

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroe ... ledge.html

Now that pledge/ oath is the kind of thing our government should look at, basically a promise to stand by the country.[/quote]

Slasher · Post by **Slasher** » 13 Feb 2008, 09:46

I have heard something about it... Not all though...

Mind posting some more info here jee?

D3PART3D · Post by **D3PART3D** » 13 Feb 2008, 09:58

DAE_JA_VOO wrote:
D3PART3D wrote:Whites make up more than 15% no?
I actually think there are LESS than 15% whites in SA. I remember reading a statistic a when i was in school that had the black population at like 85% (and that's when i was still in school).

That I didn't know. Wow... Must just be where I live that it's so diverse.

Ike · Post by **Ike** » 13 Feb 2008, 10:01

ummm... whites make up 6.2% of s.a's total populace. if you account all our lovely illegal Nigerian and Zimbabwean's it's more like 4%.

Post by **KillerByte** » 13 Feb 2008, 10:02

Regarding the "Sorry" saga... why do they need to say sorry.

If anything the apology should go along the lines of,

"We are sorry we brought written language, technology and civilization to you backward people. We apologize for teaching you about the real world and destroying your little lives that were filled with throwing sticks and stones and sleeping in caves. We would now like to take back our central heating, our electricity and running water and sewage systems.

DAE_JA_VOO · Post by **DAE_JA_VOO** » 13 Feb 2008, 10:03

Ike wrote:ummm... whites make up 6.2% of s.a's total populace. if you account all our lovely Nigerian and Zimbabwean populace it's more like 4%.

Sheesh, is it THAT little? I knew it was little but i didn't know it was THAT little. Wow.

You don't perhaps have a link to support that, do you?

Moses · Post by **Moses** » 13 Feb 2008, 10:04

Slasher wrote:"injustices of OUR past" -- Wait, what did I do wrong? Where did I play any part in apartheid?

Your reading comprehension is not so good. "injustices of our part" does not imply guilt. The Jews had injustice in their past, and they're not guilty of anything.

rustypup · Post by **rustypup** » 13 Feb 2008, 10:11

this is just another juvenile attempt at indoctrination - probably in the false belief that we'll magically become the next superpower because they can hereby mold generation after generation of mindless little fasc... i mean patriots...

Asked if she envisaged objections by parents, she said she hadn't heard of a single South African who had wanted to "opt out" of the Constitution.

anyone else pick of the veiled threat in this quote? - very reminiscent of the turn of phrase our cousin Adolf H used when launching his little tirade against men blessed with two gonads...

i bet all those 'positive thinkers' out there who keep pretending that things aren't all that bad get a warm glow every time one of these nincompoops opens its mouth... must be like watching a train running off the rails into a primary school, or witnessing someone kicking a puppy....

@KB: no 'pledge of allegiance' is a good thing... if anything it should be a pledge of disobedience, because democracies only work when each individual is exercising their evolved brain in an attempt to have his/her own way... when the general populace is lulled into apathy through years of abuse or indoctrination, you no longer have a democracy... you have the sort of joke we currently enjoy...

UrBaN · Post by **UrBaN** » 13 Feb 2008, 10:13

I disagree with the: "We the youth of South Africa, recognising the injustices of our past, honour those who suffered and sacrificed for justice and freedom" section, but I do agree with the rest.

Having an oath/pledge of allegiance/agreement to stand by your country and support humane values, morals and ethical codes is most definitely a worhtwhile activity, I don't think many people would honestly disagree with that.

Dredging up and perpetuating the memories, wrongness and stupidity of an admittedly wrong, immoral past is about as useful as shaving with a dessert spoon. These issues should be left as they are now 14 years in the past and the future of the country focused on.

Maybe a little more attention could be put on the fact that business owners are now forced to by hamsters in bulk, which run on hamster wheels and generate electricity, and a little less attention put on the already defeated apartheid system of a corrupt and suppressive government.

Tribble · Post by **Tribble** » 13 Feb 2008, 10:17

The American kids have to say an oath. Has it really made them better people? Don't some of the world's worst serial killers come from the USA?

StarPhoenix · Post by **StarPhoenix** » 13 Feb 2008, 10:17

jee wrote:Anyone been following the news in Australia about saying "i'm sorry?" ?

Yes, I heard about "The Stolen Generations" on the radio and noticed that there is an article about it in today's Dispatch. Will follow it up later as time allows.

Post by **KillerByte** » 13 Feb 2008, 10:19

UrBaN wrote:defeated apartheid system of a corrupt and suppressive government.

Isn't our current government both of these things?

capanno · Post by **capanno** » 13 Feb 2008, 10:21

I was going to make along post with lots of swear words...

This should actually be in the banana thread. Here we have a country that is in the gutter in most of the categories of existence, and yet they spend time and energy (and I bet millions of rands) on something as stupid, useless and pathetic as this.

Why should taxpayers (I am not one, yet) give they're money, and why should the general population support the government that messes up like this? I thought about this a while back. Is there even 1 thing that is above par that deserves support?

This is like a low level completely obvious indoctrination plan. They are probably trying to breed patriotism, which is a retarded concept anyway.

po10cy · Post by **po10cy** » 13 Feb 2008, 10:25

this the governments way of trying to make an effort but they 2 lazy to make ones that actually count, they think ok they can make an oath like this and the majority (being black people) will look at this and think ya its right, they making some changes to bring us MORE power, lets give them our votes....its how everything goes, they make a silly little effort at empowering their ppl more at the expense of the country and the youth of today of the white ppl and those who dont fall under BEE anymore because its creating even more of a rift between the cultures when the past is the past and the youth of today just want to have a FAIR opportunity for their furtures, this is why most ppl jump ship and the country is in the trouble it is now!

UrBaN · Post by **UrBaN** » 13 Feb 2008, 10:26

KillerByte wrote:
UrBaN wrote:defeated apartheid system of a corrupt and suppressive government.
Isn't our current government both of these things?

Yes I suppose so, but to a much lesser extent. Well...

My point was, the population currently has more freedoms as a whole than it did then. That's similar to sayingbeing slapped is better than being kicked in the nuts, neither of which is pleasant. However, things in this country have progressed somewhat. We do have a relatively good Human Rights support base, religious freedom in this country is far better than in many other countries and our drug use is not (yet) as high as a lot of the European countries (though this will change soon as Southern Africa is now a major drug trade route).

So yes, it is both generally corrupt, and suppressive in certain aspects, though you can't deny it is leaps and bounds better than it ever was before.