Stop exodus of skilled whites

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Tel
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Stop exodus of skilled whites

Post by Tel »

Fin24.co.za wrote:Johannesburg - A leading South African think-tank called on the government on Tuesday to halt an exodus of skilled whites, saying their departure could prove fatal for the country's economy.

Africa's economic powerhouse suffers from an acute lack of skilled workers in both the private and the public sector, a problem the group said was exacerbated by what it called misconceived legislation designed to boost jobs for blacks.

"The country is very seriously short of skills - there could be potentially fatal consequences for economic growth," John Kane-Berman, chief executive of the South African Institute of Race Relations (SAIRR), said in an interview on Tuesday.

The African National Congress-led government, which took power in 1994, has sought to remedy apartheid-era injustices that discriminated against blacks by introducing an affirmative action programme.

Poor quality education threatens economic growth

The white population in South Africa declined by 841,000 between 1995 and 2005, the biggest drop in at least 50 years, according to SAIRR, which was formed in 1929 to promote democracy and improve race relations in South Africa.

"The (affirmative action) legislation was entirely misconceived. The reason there aren't so many blacks in managerial positions is lack of supply not lack of demand. There are not sufficiently qualified black people," Kane-Berman said.

Government officials were not immediately available to comment on the criticism.

While many whites complain about affirmative action, blacks say there is a lack of educational opportunities.

Education Minister Naledi Pandor said last week poor quality education in public schools threatened long-term economic growth.

Exodus of skilled South Africans is a serious problem

Whites, who have always been a minority in South Africa, now account for 9% of the estimated population of 45 million people, down from 12.5% in 1995, according to the think-tank, which based its analysis on official data.

The government cannot confirm the rate of the exodus because it stopped publishing emigration figures in 2004.

"The heads of families are emigrating. They're professionals and they're taking their kids with them. We cannot afford to lose those skills," said Kane-Berman, an outspoken voice against apartheid whose group continues to monitor race relations.

Deputy President Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka recently acknowledged the exodus of skilled South Africans was a serious problem and that the government was taking steps to encourage people to remain or return to the country.

Ref: Fin24.co.za
I know this is going to cause a stir, but I found this article very interesting.

I am all for Black Empowerment, but the way in which the South African Government have gone about it is all wrong. People have been employed on racial preference and not skill. It's about time that this changes.

Interestingly, I read another article (found here) this morning where the governor of the Reserve Bank, Tito Mboweni, stated that in order for Black Empowerment to be successful, people need to be taught by the experts. In South Africa's case, the experts are the whites.
Tito Mboweni wrote:...when Governor Tito Mboweni spoke recently at a breakfast session in Johannesburg. When describing the dilemma the Bank is facing - black people who seek greener pastures shortly after being appointed and trained, his words were: 'I get so upset... I'm stopping this recruitment of black people. I'm okay with my Afrikaners. They stay and do the work and become experts.'
What are your views on this whole issue.

Please note that this is not to get ugly. This is a decent political discussion. If it starts to get ugly, I'm pulling the plug on this thread.
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Post by Ark »

You do your best, you get the job. Thats how its supposed to be.
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Mal
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Post by Mal »

I agree on empowement but it is being done the wrong way. The reality of the situation is that people, such as myself, are able to get a much better experience overseas. I am an engineer and South Africa is just not condusive to growth. Mital charges local clients an arm and a leg for steel (gone up 7.5% AGAIN), Telkom cant get ADSL lines out fast enough (Telecommunication is seen as a luxury and not as a necessity as in other countries).......these factors and many more make it increasingly difficult to compete with overseas firms and hence make employment and business viablr.

In short if we fix these issues and encourage growth of bussiness and entrepreneurship, this will create jobs and will appeal to entrepreneurs to remain in SA.

I have recently accepted a job offer to work in Dubai for a number of years.... my reasons for leaving is the experience and the money. I love this country, but i think alot needs to change. We need more competition and more freedom regarding employment (No stringent empowerment criteria)

I believe empowerment should be grass roots. i.e. for a company to be classified as and empowering company they should donate Rx (x amount of Rands) to a charity or help develope infastructure in rural areas. This is true empowerment (not just handing out equity)

That is my 5c. Very interesting thread...looking forward to following it. Hope it doesnt get ugly.
Last edited by Mal on 05 Oct 2006, 12:20, edited 1 time in total.
Tel
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Post by Tel »

Ark wrote:You do your best, you get the job. Thats how its supposed to be.
I second that. That's the way I've always felt.

Nowadays there are a lot of skilled non-whites. There is no excuse for not hiring on merit anymore.
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Post by Kronos »

I agree.

As Chris Rock said: "I don't believe I should get a job over a white person if he is better than me. But if there's a tie, F### him"

If there is a black person applying for the same job as me at the same time and we are both equally good or if he is better, then it is fair to give him the job. But if I am better, I am the better option for the job.

Also, if my work is unsatisfactory, and I need to be replaced, fine. If I'm to be replaced by a black person, he obviously needs to be better than me, otherwise it's pointless.

It is however wrong to fire me, and hire a black person, just because of AA

This is one of the reasons why I'm considering immigrating
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Post by Tel »

Interesting view there Mal. Donations to development, very good idea indeed.
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Mal
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Post by Mal »

BEE turns skilled non-whites into comodities. IMO It feels like skilled white people get treated differently to skilled non-whites. I believe this is wrong. I truely believe in hiring on merit.
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Post by ryanrich »

I agree that black empowerment is a good idea, but it isn't being executed very well at all.

I read another article the other day that stated that over 1 million white professionals have left the country in the past 10 years, and that number is just growing.

As a white male in my 20's I've never had a problem getting a job, and am currently very succesful in my career, my decision to leave the country is because of other personal factors.
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Post by capanno »

Lets all go to Botswana. :)
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Post by lmm »

there is alot of unfair employment going on not only in the race department.
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Post by ryanrich »

Kronos wrote:I agree.

As Chris Rock said: "I don't believe I should get a job over a white person if he is better than me. But if there's a tie, F### him"

If there is a black person applying for the same job as me at the same time and we are both equally good or if he is better, then it is fair to give him the job. But if I am better, I am the better option for the job.

Also, if my work is unsatisfactory, and I need to be replaced, fine. If I'm to be replaced by a black person, he obviously needs to be better than me, otherwise it's pointless.

It is however wrong to fire me, and hire a black person, just because of AA

This is one of the reasons why I'm considering immigrating
Yep, agree 100%.
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Re: Stop exodus of skilled whites

Post by Acidkidsa »

[quote}
I am all for Black Empowerment, but the way in which the South African Government have gone about it is all wrong. [/quote]

Oh yeah its great buddy!!! Many companies were forced to close down. By following their "clever" business practices... If anything is going to cause more job losses its BEE. All they do is try over take successfull business and try pocket the money for themselves by doing as little as possible. Instead of creating their own businesses.

Good example is the link below.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1 ... 339C145159
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Post by skunkymunky »

on the other hand i've seen a lot of companies abuse their BEE status. They hire a bunch of black ppl, under pay them and expect them to work hard if not more as their white counter-parts. this is not a race remark, i've seen it happen, one of the biggest reasons i left East London.
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Post by doo_much »

Stop dreaming. This IS going to get ugly at some stage. :cry:

But I agree - the best person for the job should get it.

What's happening with poor Tito is that he hired bright young people of colour, trained them well and they're now being 'bought' by corporates scrambling to get their BEE profile looking good. It's all about money. He of all people should realise that. Viva capitalism, viva :!:
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Post by Acidkidsa »

skunkymunky wrote:on the other hand i've seen a lot of companies abuse their BEE status. They hire a bunch of black ppl, under pay them and expect them to work hard if not more as their white counter-parts. this is not a race remark, i've seen it happen, one of the biggest reasons i left East London.
For sure some companies might abuse it. But if I had a bunch of black ppl working for me none have any work experience , or are not qualified at anything. I will pay them minimum wage .

Alot of companies will lie about their BEE status cause they simply not going to give 40% of their company that took years to develop to some stranger. They do this cause suppliers are refusing to supply them cause their BEE score card or status is not sufficient. so they end up not been able to their day to day business.

Read one of the application forms for BEE and then tell me if Apartheid is gone.

South Africa has lost multi million deal if not Billions . Because countries like America, Germany, France stated that the South African Affirmative action is racist.

Now that coming from 1st world countries should say something. I remember reading this in the star last year.

If the person is good enough for the job then give it to him , not someone who cant even write his name.
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Post by skunkymunky »

Yes my good man u r right
hiring a person with no work xp, giving them minimum wage is no probs. but in my case when i did hv corporate work experience abt a yrs worth, how do u justify paying me 4500 a month while a fresh out of high school designer who is white may i also mention with no experience get 6000. Hence wat i'm saying some comapnies hire black ppl underpay them, while the white equal counter-parts get more. nw why wud i wanna stay in such an enviro
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Post by Mal »

Ive noticed some black proffessionals earning more than the exact same white proffesionals. This is due to the BEE system turning them into a commodity. Supply and demand. I feel that the white proffesionals should have an equal opportunity and treatment. thats my opinion
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Post by Acidkidsa »

skunkymunky wrote:Yes my good man u r right
hiring a person with no work xp, giving them minimum wage is no probs. but in my case when i did hv corporate work experience abt a yrs worth, how do u justify paying me 4500 a month while a fresh out of high school designer who is white may i also mention with no experience get 6000. Hence wat i'm saying some comapnies hire black ppl underpay them, while the white equal counter-parts get more. nw why wud i wanna stay in such an enviro
See what you saying. Opps made a mistake here. Did not read you msg correctly. Maybe the dude was freinds of the business?? I dont know but it is wrong..
A starting salary of 4500 is not bad. Mine was 3200 per month and I had
more experiance than the other workers... Yet they all got paid nearly double than me . It also has do if you boss is just a natural born prick like mine was.
When I left he offered me a higher salary than the rest (like a whole 500 more!!) But I still left.

What ever improves lives and creates more jobs and make the country grow , I will help grow. BEE is doing the exact opposite. More people choose to leave to other countries and find jobs. Then 5 years down the line the GOV wants them to return, for half the pay and half the rights???

Dont get me wrong . Things will improve as soon as all these old folks are gone and our generation takes over...

I am not racist. I just love my race!
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Post by F-ROD »

Wow, this is actually the 1st thread with witty retorts i have come across on pcf. BEE is nonsense, i am saying that as a black person. Who are the major beneficiaries of BEE??The ANC chiefwhips namely Tokyo Sekwale, Cyril Ramaphosa, to name but a few. And then our president tries to fight this by suggesting that ANC officials BEE deals be monitored, and most retorted with saying they did not fight in the struggle to be poor?wtf?They r making millions and billions whereas the average black person doesnt even have moey to buy bread. I so wish that voters are not as inane as they were the next time they vote, and the next elections, the ANC has less power.

And then, the white companies that hire blacks in managerial positions just to put face, piss me the f off, i mean imagine being a board member in a certain company and you have no say, whatever, u're just there as a PR stunt. BEE should be implemented in another way, but what?
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Post by Mikdog »

Dont get me wrong . Things will improve as soon as all these old folks are gone and our generation takes over...
I'd like to refer to Bruce Springsteen's song; 'Give Peace a Chance'

"...Every generation
blames the one before..."

I thought this quite appropriate.
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Post by Acidkidsa »

F-ROD wrote:And then, the white companies that hire blacks in managerial positions just to put face, piss me the f off, i mean imagine being a board member in a certain company and you have no say, whatever, u're just there as a PR stunt. BEE should be implemented in another way, but what?
Well they dont have much of choice to hire them.

How should it be implemented?? BEE should not even exist anymore.
If I am not mistaken BEE was only suppose to run for 10 years. What have they gained?? A few rich fat cats and the rest suffer like you said.

Try something different . They should try create their own businesses and own jobs , instead of milking the rest... They just trying to take a short cuts by taking over companies instead of creating one from scatch.
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Post by ryanrich »

Acidkidsa wrote:Dont get me wrong . Things will improve as soon as all these old folks are gone and our generation takes over...
Which generation are you referring to by the way?
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Post by Acidkidsa »

ryanrich wrote:
Acidkidsa wrote:Dont get me wrong . Things will improve as soon as all these old folks are gone and our generation takes over...
Which generation are you referring to by the way?
Sh*t sorry I am doing 50 things at once. Which Generation. Any generation after 2000.
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Post by ryanrich »

Acidkidsa wrote:
ryanrich wrote:
Acidkidsa wrote:Dont get me wrong . Things will improve as soon as all these old folks are gone and our generation takes over...
Which generation are you referring to by the way?
Sh*t sorry I am doing 50 things at once. Which Generation. Any generation after 2000.
What do you mean after 2000? Matriculated after 2000 or what?
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Post by Acidkidsa »

ryanrich wrote:
Acidkidsa wrote:
ryanrich wrote:
Acidkidsa wrote:Dont get me wrong . Things will improve as soon as all these old folks are gone and our generation takes over...
Which generation are you referring to by the way?
Sh*t sorry I am doing 50 things at once. Which Generation. Any generation after 2000.
What do you mean after 2000? Matriculated after 2000 or what?
Yeah , matriculated after 2000. Thats just my opinion.
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