Neon Genesis Evangelion (Spoilers)

[Rayne]

Would love to see a few questions and answers in this topic...

I watched Death And Rebirth again yesterday, still as confused as ever.

If I leanrned anything then it would be the fact that my prior quotas in this thread was a little rusty, sorry, they aren't exact, but I'll fix it soon, with a few screens.

And oh ja jee you were correct, there was indeed a Revival Of Evangelion movie made, though it does not replace The End Of Evangelion, it's just a directors cut per se. Another one I have to get then.

But in short, even watching every episode and every movie made will not help you understand this series. There is a collectable cardset and The Red Cross Book that fills gaps too. And even with all of these knowledges you are 99% guaranteed to still be confused at the end, though I myself would like to put this saga behind me once and for all.

Anyways, in short, I did get to hear Misato's explanation concerning the Evangelions again to refresh my memory -

Evangelions are humans who rejected the human form. They are what humans could have become. Humans were the 18th angel.

That is why SEELE could use Evangelion Unit 1, the only Evangelion born from Lilith, for the Human Complementation Project, Third Impact. Which is also why they needed Shinji in it at the time, to give it a dormant soul.

Btw Nuke Asuka's soul never left her Eva when she died. I was again reminded as to why in Rebirth. Misato said that as long as they remain in their Eva's they were protected. Asuka only felt the same pain Evangelion Unit 2 endured because she was at a high sync-ratio with it, the highest throughout the entire series I might add.

The Evangelions wen't bersrker as a last resort, as the souls of both Shinji's and Asuka's mothers took control so as to protect them. Yui's soul never left Evangelion Unit 1.

And from what I remember in The End Of Evangelion, Yui told Shinji that everything can come to pass, yet the Evangelion shall always remain as long as as it carries a human soul, though lonely, it will never die.

That's why I think that was really Asuka at the end, her soul did not leave her Evangelion, and it's going berserker confirms it.

I'll whatch that again later this week and give the exact quatas.

[Nuke]

Another thing I must rewatch after friday

SOmething else Ive been wondering about, why did the weapon of one of the mass-produced evas turn into the lance of Longinus? It happend just after it hit Asuka AT-field.

[Rayne]

That's how they were made.

Anyone of those weapons could have done so.

SEELE had to use an artificial weapon seeing they had no way of retrieving the original Lance Of Longinus.

Though they got it back afterall...

You know, the thing is the events in this damn anime occur too much too fast and the dialogue is somehow beyond me, seriously, sometimes I have to rewind and listen to something again just to gasp what's going on.

One thing I did realise though is that explanations are scattered throughout the series and endings, but it is extremely hard to notice.

And yet people say anime has weak storyline's?

Fck me man, The Lord Of The Rings trilogy didn't have me confused.

And I'm not confused because it's Eva that has a badly planned script, oh no maties, I am confused because I feel I am to damn stupid to understand it.

This is how complicated some of these anime series's actually are!

Like that link you gave us Nuke, I did some reading there a while ago, and like they said, when Evangelion was first released in a kids timeslot it did bad, but when they aired it in an adult slot ratings hit the roof!

And another thing I noted there - I actually thought the English dub was done good, yet I saw guys extremely p1ssed-off saying dialoque has been messed-up beyond repair. Hell that means I'll be even more confused have I seen the original!

Hey!?

[Nuke]

I thought there was only one Lance of Longinus, that was why it was so valueble.

Eish *sigh* Sometimes Im wondering the the writer didnt just put a lot of random ideas together while on a LSD trip and is now laughing at the world trying to understand the story.
One day we will hopely understand the story, but we will need an Einstein to figure it out and explain it.
Why dont they give it to us instead of Shakespear, even his books are not so hard to explain(the can give the one that have the answer to it 100%, easily )

[Rayne]

Right, now just wait for Hollywood's interpretation of Evangelion...

OMG they are so going to fck this up!

Neon Genesis cannot be explained in a 2 hour movie, period.

[Nuke]

I think its only going to be about the first 4 eps of the series. They should rather make an expaination movie for the series, or make only the End of Eva as a life movie.

But I think they are in anyway going to F it up. On the other hand, it may turn out like the Matrix.

[Rayne]

Thing is, does Hollywood even know the plot themselves?

See if they don't, they are going to do what they always do, make-up their own, and that's going to cause quite a problem.

Though yeah I'll watch it, the budget for it is larger than The Lord Of Rings' so it will definately be quite spectacular seeing the Eva's and Angels are enormous creatures, and hell Jennifer Garner plays Misato as far as I know, so...

[Nuke]

As long as their plot fits the rest of the story.... I hope they got the people who made the anime to help them, otherwise they are going to waste a budget bigger that lotr's on nothing.

I wonder whos going to play Shinji. Have not seen much news about this movie. I heard release dates form 2006 to 2009.....

[neon_chameleon]

[Nuke]

*sigh* There is a hugh diffs between DBZ and Eva. DBZ is a kids show, but even adults dont understand Eva. But I like the Castle Romeo shot.

Now I wonder how many people that bash anime is going to see the hollywood movie

[Rayne]

True that, the uneducated will think it's a godsend and and talk about it non-stop.

What do you wanna bet me these same anime hater's will even start new threads for it, just you watch and see...

Most won't even realise where it originated from, yet they talk like experts, pft, what a joke.

Btw yes GAINAX oversees the project, that's why it's been put on hold, they are running over the script :

Weta has been designing a live-action adaptation of Neon Genesis: Evangelion. The film is on hold but it is Weta’s hope that it will enjoy getting to work on the film production of this amazing story in the near future.

http://www.wetaworkshop.co.nz/projects/ ... on_genesis

And who will Hollywood play the 14 yo Shinji? Hmmm... probably some 30 yo loser, won't be suprised if they pick Jamie Kennedy...

[jee]

They will probably change the ages slightly.. its going to be rather difficult to portray the real emotions of the 14 year olds in a real movie... depends on how much they will commercialise the film and if they would keep the darkness of it, or rather just portray it as a war between robots.

[Nuke]

lol yeah, I can already see them speculating about what will happen in the next movie, making and breaking theories. Watching other peoples ignorance is always fun. I really would like to see it the moment it starts at the cinima to see other peoples reactions.
If GAINAX oversees it I have hope, they wont alter the story to much. Hopely the wont let it look like a robot war, seeing that its not even robots.

[Rayne]

I also think they will make it a robot war. If so then I hope they portray Asuka's final battle. That was gruesome.

Well if it's good then at least it's entertainment.

But money talks in this world, Hollywood will have the final say regardless.

Btw Nuke those EVA series weapons were created to be anti-AT Field, just like their S2 engines, how they managed to capture Evangelion Unit 1, working together to break his down.

It was all part of Complementation.

Look at the weapons when they fight Asuka, they were all huge thick blades, then look at that pic you posted, they were all spears.

[Gandalf]

Just looking up some EVA explanations on google and what a surprise to find a thread here on PCF!!!

Anyway I watched it quite a while back, but got pulled back into the mad storyline again when my girl started whatching last week(she watched the whole thing in one sitting!)

Couple of questions. What does the 17 Angel realize when it sees Lilith in terminal dogma. Was angels also spawned from lilith and could this be the cause and if it was how could he know just by seeing her?

Why did Unit 0 attack Dr ??? (cant remember her name and to lazy to go to another page(that blond lady who programs the magi))

A movie sounds interesting but hollywood will f it up! And if they put some stupid talentless actress to play Asuka like Linsy lohan they are going to start 4th impact!

Actually got a lot more questions but cant remember them now. will probably hit me later while i'm working.

[Rayne]

What does the 17 Angel realize when it sees Lilith in terminal dogma. Was angels also spawned from lilith and could this be the cause and if it was how could he know just by seeing her?

That it is Lilith crusified in Terminal Dogma and not Adam as SEELE thought -

Kuwaro : "Must one that is born from Adam return to Adam even though it will destroy mankind?"
Kuwaro : "Wait... this is not... Lilith... the Lilum (humans)... now I understand..." (looks up and sees Ayanami, the husk carying Lilith)

No. Angels were spawned from Adam, the first Angel, and so were all the Evangelions except for Evangelion Unit 1, spawned from Lilith, the second Angel. That's why it could opperate without it's umbilical cable, Lilith gave it that power.

A moment earlier this is what Kuwaro told Shinji -

Kuwaro "Your Eva's and I are made from the very same matter." "I can synchronize with it easily as long as there is no dormant soul." "And Unit 2's soul now hides itself." (Asuka)

He was able to tell them apart for the same reason we, well, are able to tell the diffirence between a cat and a dog.

Adam was embedded into Gendo Ikari's hand. That's how Second Impact occured, he was reduced to embrio stage.

SEELE never knew this.

* What you should be asking yourself is, what was Ayanami doing there? Would she have stopped him? ... *

Why did Unit 0 attack Dr ??? (cant remember her name and to lazy to go to another page(that blond lady who programs the magi))

I didn't read into that too much.

I merely think it just rejected it's soul / pilot and simply wen't berserker. She just happened to be there. It also threw a couple of swings at Gendo. Ayanami was composed of Lilith, her Eva from Adam. She could not succesfully synchronize with it.

It was afterall only a prototype.

A movie sounds interesting but hollywood will f it up! And if they put some stupid talentless actress to play Asuka like Linsy lohan they are going to start 4th impact!

Bhahahaha!

[Gandalf]

But what bothers me is why Kuwaro let Shinji kill him, so what if it was Lilith, why not just continue on to find Adam, surely he could'nt know that Adam was in embrio state.

So a 3rd impact invoked by the angels would kill mankind but the artificial 3rd impact created by Seele would unite mankind as one and this is due to the LCL oozing out of lilith, right?

Geez thx you know your stuff. Are you into hellsing? If you are got any info on the new OVA series being released.

[Rayne]

Eish Gandalf, you are asking difficult questions.

I am going to lead you in the correct direction here but at the same time I want you to realize that my interpretation is merely touching the top of an iceberg. There is a lot, and I mean a lot more to it than the answers about to follow. I also need you to realize that my interpretation does not make me correct.

You actually answered your first question with the latter part of that same sentence already.

But what bothers me is why Kuwaro let Shinji kill him…

He questioned his own intend, admired humanities will to survive, and knew they could not co-exist -

> Kuwaro : “…I thank you Shinji. I wanted you to take Unit 2 from me. Otherwise, with it’s protection, I might have lived much longer.”
> Shinji : “Kuwaro, but why?”
> Kuwaro : “It is my destiny to live forever, though it will destroy the Lilim. However, it is possible for me to be killed, and whether I live or die makes no great difference. The only truth the Lilim have never been able to gasp is that death may be the only absolute freedom there ever was.”
> Shinji : “Please, don’t make me do this!”
> Kuwaro : “This is my wish. I want you to destroy me, otherwise you will be destroyed. Only one life-form can be chosen to avoid the destruction and seize the future and you are not the existence which should die. You need the future. It is what you Lilim live for.” I thank you, Shinji Ikari. My life is meaningful, because of you…”

...so what if it was Lilith, why not just continue on to find Adam…

Because he doubted the rest of the information SEELE disclosed to him. Finding Lilith instead of Adam came as a shocking revelation to him. And as above, he admired their will to survive -

> Kuwaro : “…The Eva series was born from Adam and yet the humans will utilize that which they hate most of all in order to survive? I do not understand…” (He came to understand, and more so, respect it)

…surely he could'nt know that Adam was in embrio state...

Correct, he did not, for his creators, and source of information, SEELE, did not know it themselves. Only Gendo Ikari, Kouzou Fuyutsuki and Ritsuko Akagi knew this. Misato Katsuragi may also have learnt this when Ryoji Kaji revealed Terminal Dogma’s secret to her, though I seriously doubt that. It was kept a secret by Gendo Ikari, so as to advance his personal agenda risk-free.

Adam was reduced to embrio stage and implanted into Gendo Ikari’s right hand. That’s why it remained covered with a white glove throughout the series until his intend was revealed when he merged Adam (the implanted embrio in his hand) with Rei Ayanami (the direct clone of Lilith, and, if you did not know, a clone of his beloved wife, Yui Ikari, as well) –

> Kouzou : “…SEELE is planning to use an all-out defensive against headquarters and take the two Eva’s by force aren’t they?”
> Gendo : “Of course, we have both Adam and Lilith…”

...So a 3rd impact invoked by the angels would kill mankind…

Yes.

Angels act on their own accord. They are not controlled by any higher entity whatsoever, except for, maybe, though highly questionable, God himself. They are bound to destroy humanity. This is their sole purpose in this series.

…but the artificial 3rd impact created by Seele would unite mankind as one…

No.

Firstly, do not mistake Third Impact (or First and Second for that matter) with The Human Complementation Project. The latter can only be spawned and is as such solely dependant on the first (Third Impact > Human Complementation), but not the other way around (Human Complementation > Third Impact). Should an Angel however have managed to merge with Adam then yes, it would have been Complemented as well, but mankind would have completely perished as a result. Nothing would have been merged into a single entity, they would simply be no more –

>Kouzou : “…You don’t think it will attempt to fuse with Unit 2 do you?”
> Gendo : “Or will it bring about our total destruction… “(This was not a question. Gendo knew exactly what SEELE was planning)

SEELE’S method would still require mankind’s total annihilation as well in order to create a singly, perfect being -

> SEELE : "…God, man, and all life must die in order to become one."
> Gendo : “Death creates nothing.”
> SEELE : “Your death will create an opportunity…”

The only method of Human Complementation that does not involve mankind’s total destruction in the entire series is that (Selfish one…?) of Gendo Ikari’s. His method required Adam, Lilith and Ayanami. Gendo merely longed to be united with his dead wife Yui. Only their two souls would have been united as one. It would not have influenced any other beings –

> Gendo : “…Professor Fuyutsuki, take care of this please.”
> Kouzou : “Yes commander. Please give my regards to Yui…” (See, no one else would have died)

…………………………

> Gendo : “I have already joined with Adam. The only way I will ever see my Yui again is through the forbidden fusion of Adam and Lilith… Let use begin Rei… Merge all souls into one, and then, take me to Yui’s side…”

SEELE’s method required the use of Evangelion Unit 1 (a direct clone of Lilith), the Eva series (direct clones of Adam) and The Lance Of Longinus.

Again though, do not get confused here -

Gendo Ikari brought about Third Impact, not SEELE. AT-Fields disappeared that moment he laid his right hand bearing Adam on Ayanami, bearing Lilith.

What happened thereafter he did not foresee though –

Ayanami (the only vessel capable of carrying Lilith’s soul) now already merged with Adam rejected him, and chose to fuse with Lilith, alone. (Gendo’s right has now been embedded within Ayanami, as we see him holding his arm in pain thereafter. He thus lost it)

…and this is due to the LCL oozing out of lilith, right?

Yes and no.

Yes because this resembles mere souls without AT-Fields –

> Kuwaro : “…Don’t you Lilim realize that AT-Fields are merely that barrier which encloses your minds?…”

A single flowing entity, in which all souls reside. The correct term - "The Sea Of LCL".

And no because first and foremost LCL is Lilith’s blood. Whilst crucified in Terminal Dogma it never stopped flowing from her side, pierced by The Lance Of Longinus. (It resembles the side-wound of the crucified body of Christ, pierced by a spear). Secondly it is not a direct result thereof. In actual fact it has much more to do with The Egg of Lilith, The Black Moon, from which human souls (Lilim) originated. That’s why we see the human souls flowing into it first, only to again flow back to earth from Ayanami / Lilith herself, later, after Shinji Rejected Human Complementation.

Third Impact neither failed nor succeeded. For even though humanity have been restored, it still left one big-bottom scar on earth, much like Second Impact before it.

And no, I actually do not know all that much about Evangelion. I simply know where to look for the answers I myself have. And I’m also, as most who’s seen this series, still searching…

And nah I still need to get Hellsing hey.

Eva was my introduction to anime, and it’s been haunting me since. Boy what a mistake that was…

Look on the first page of this thread, the first post by Nuke, follow that link he gave us. Then when there, follow those links provided. The Evangelion FAQ and A Guide to is very informative.

[Nuke]

Eish *scraches head*
So Kuwaru was like the Eva's created by humans. And the matter he was made from is Lilith, same as Rei and same as Unit 1. Why didnt SEELE use him as a catalyst for the 3rd impact?

[Rayne]

Erm, hehee, nope...

(Don't worry Nuke, this took me months to piece-together myself)

...So Kuwaru was like the Eva's created by humans...

Yes.

He was exactly like the Eva's. That's why he could sunchronize with it at any rate he wished. He was created by SEELE, yes.

...And the matter he was made from is Lilith, same as Rei and same as Unit 1...

No.

Kuwaro Nagisa, 17th Angel, was born from the first Angel, Adam. Rei Ayanami was born from the second Angel, Lilith. Kuwaro is to Adam what Rei is to Lilith. Both are vessels capable of carying a soul, both have pale skin, silver hair, and red eyes. Rei powered the Dummy-Plugs, and Kuwaro the Eva series. They are equal beings. Just so is Adam equal to Lilith.

Evangelion Unit 1 is the sole Eva spawned from Lilith, yes. The other Evangelions are spwaned from Adam.

...Why didnt SEELE use him as a catalyst for the 3rd impact?

Because they needed Evangelion Unit 1, spawned from Lilith.

Lilith was needed in both scenarios.

- Adam + Adam = Fail
- Adam + Lilith = Success

Though Shinji Ikari was the actual catalyst. For he was within Unit 1, thus, he was in control of it, the dominant soul powering it. (Lilith [Unit 1] / Lilim [Shinji], both same matter, thus either, or)

Kuwaro could not be the catalyst for Human Complementation. He could only triger Third Impact. A human was needed (either Lilith or Lilim, her offspring).

Remember, humans themselves, are the 18th Angel.

[Nuke]

But Kuwaro told Shinji "Your Eva's and I are made from the very same matter. I can synchronize with it easily as long as there is no dormant soul." I thought that means they have the same source(lilith).
The mass produced Evas are then from Adam, cause it reacted with Unit 1 that was from Lilith?

Kuwaru - adam
Rei - lilith
Unit 0 and 2 - adam
Unit 1 - lilith
Mass produced evas - adam
?


my brain is getting burned so late in the night.

[Gandalf]

This series really is a brain bender, but I love it! Got most of the info like the FAQ but though helpfull it doesn't explain enough related to the story. It did clear up a lot of questions but seems to focus to much on what things are and where they came from in the real world to be used in the series. Same goes for that red cross book handed out with the movie End of Evangelion.

So if Seele just needed a desendent of Lilith, why not just use a human?

And how the hell did Asuka's mom's soul get into Unit 2? I can understand maybe Yui in Unit 1 cause Gendo worked on the project.

Oh and am I the only one thinking Shinji is a annoying little wuss? If he just went with Misato and fought with Asuka then this whole thread would have been shorter. Plus Unit 1 ate a S2 engine right? so it also has no need for the ambilical cord. Unit 1 and 2 would've kicked bottom against the EVA production series!

IF you guys like this series watch Bubblegum Crisis, not as intense as EVA but still fun close to the same kind a plot. It's like a downgraded EVA series and Nene is so cute!

[Rayne]

But Kuwaro told Shinji "Your Eva's and I are made from the very same matter. I can synchronize with it easily as long as there is no dormant soul." I thought that means they have the same source(lilith)...

No.

Think of the context in which he told Shinji that - He took Evangelion Unit 2 (born from Adam) with him for protection, which he was able to easily do, because Asuka's dominant soul was not in it.

Unit 2 (Adam) & Kuwaro (Adam) = same matter.

You've got it correct, you've just got your Angels mixed-up.

They have the same source, Adam.

...The mass produced Evas are then from Adam, cause it reacted with Unit 1 that was from Lilith?...

Yes.

All the Evangelions except for Unit 1 was spawned by Adam, though that has nothing to do with it. Thier 9x combined S2 engines created the anti-AT-Field, which broke down Unit 1's, also carrying a S2 engine.

...Kuwaru - adam
Rei - lilith
Unit 0 and 2 - adam
Unit 1 - lilith
Mass produced evas - adam
?

Correct. (Eva 3, 4 and 5 spawned from Adam as well)

...So if Seele just needed a desendent of Lilith, why not just use a human?...

They did. Shinji was the actual instrument for Human Complementation.

Using Evangelion Unit 1 was a requirement, for he was the closest image of Lilith herself -

> SEELE : "...Let it reveal the true form of the EVA series..."
> SEELE : "...Afterall, this is why they have been created..."

That's why Evangelion Unit 1 broke all his restraints that moment AT-Fields disappeared.

...And how the hell did Asuka's mom's soul get into Unit 2? I can understand maybe Yui in Unit 1 cause Gendo worked on the project...

So did she, before she went insane and hung herself.

Having lost a mother was a requirement for the "Children". All of them required to be 14 years old, all of them required to have sufferred their mothers loss.

...Oh and am I the only one thinking Shinji is a annoying little wuss? If he just went with Misato and fought with Asuka then this whole thread would have been shorter...

No, you are not. Shinji really is, but, his actions are perfectly understandable. He is a confused, 14 year old little boy. He has no mothers love, his father rejects him, his forced into battle, forced to kill. The only 2 people that has ever befriended him and expressed love towards him (Kuwaro - gay?...) died by his hand. He has just learned that Rei is a clone, he has just witnissed her clones destroyed. He was scared, but not allowed to show it. He was confused, battling with his emotions, felt alone, and just sufferred a nervous breakdown. And even though every one around him knew this, the future of the human race, the life of every being on earth was still laid in his sole hands.

It was just too much.

Like he himself said after he wanked to the naked Asuka in hospital -

> Shinji : "I am so fcked-up."

No 14 year old would have been able to hold it together. Not even Asuka did, the stong character she was. Look at her whilst under water. She was protected in Evangelion Unit 2, a indestructable, walking "God", yet she was scared out of her mind, and did not have the courage to fight either.

...Plus Unit 1 ate a S2 engine right? so it also has no need for the ambilical cord. Unit 1 and 2 would've kicked bottom against the EVA production series!...

100% correct. They would have been no match, for even Asuka defeated all 9x of them within 3 minutes running on back-up power.

But, what an ending would that have been?

...IF you guys like this series watch Bubblegum Crisis, not as intense as EVA but still fun close to the same kind a plot. It's like a downgraded EVA series and Nene is so cute!

Yip, will still get around to that.

Evangelion is the mind-fck it is because it was ment to be one, the writer himself sufferred a nervous breakdown and struggled whith his emotions.

That's why human emotion is so strongly implemented in this series.

Evangelion is not your usual light-hearted anime. It is extremely depressing!

[jee]

no Gandalf... i have had difficulties in liking Shinji.. even though I understand 14 year old boys. I think that is the beauty of anime.. (some genres) - unlike the fairytale and the movie and Disney, there is seldom a "happily ever after" and the hero is firmly ensconsed in real life.. having to deal with the harsh realities of life. As Rayne pointed out, he is very confused... and his anguish in killing is the one thing of the series that had bothered me most - i'm violently anti-kill, but understand the need sometimes for it in order for the greater good...

Shinji is the reason I think that the movie will be a pure "fight between big metal creatures". I cannot for once think how they will portray such anguish, such pain... or even understand the pshyce of a 14 year old boy...

[Rayne]

Very true that.

Though I still doubt that movie will ever see the light of day.