Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

[hamin_aus]

Yeah, as long as we are going to bring unrelated threads into this pap-smear campaign...

-Prometheus-s, you jumped into a MySQL vs MSSQL argument without even having used MSSQL before.
Seems typical of your approach to everything.

Rational person: This is why X beats Y [citation given]
-Prometheus-: No. Y beats X.
Rational person: What do you even know about X? You haven't corroborated your opinion at all
-Prometheus-: ARE YOU THREATENING ME??? I AM CORNHOLIO!!!!!

[-Prometheus-]

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[GreyWolf]

ARE YOU THREATENING ME??? I AM CORNHOLIO!!!!!

WIN!

[PingPong]

Creationist: Err... you can't prove evolution.
Evolutionist: It doesn't matter. You can't prove God so YOU are wrong.

How can you say that? Our claim is that we can prove it. It is a fact. You haven't refuted a single piece of evidence that Riax presented for you in such a neat and concise manner. The genetic evidence aside (the mountains of it), there exists heaps of fossil evidence too, for almost every animal: Go look at the evolutionary tree for any species. You will see gradual changes in the species from it's first form (the first fossil found) to it's current form. One particularly striking example is the whale. We have fossils showing us how the eyes gradually moved backwards over time and legs retreated into the body, all over the space of about 50 million years.

So the actual way your dialogue should read is:

Creationist: You can't prove evolution
Evolutionist: Actually we can. Here is all the evidence. Where's yours?

[RiaX]

Creationist: I don't believe in evolution.
Evolutionist: But you can't prove God, so you're wrong.
Creationist: Err... you can't prove evolution.
Evolutionist: It doesn't matter. You can't prove God so YOU are wrong.
Creationist:

OH MY WORD. Explain to me what antibiotic resistance is, if it isnt evolution.

what do you see it as ?

[capanno]

I just love this debate. The mere fact that Rusty doesn't say peep about RiaX school grade debating skills supports my mental image that he is sitting at his computer foaming at the mouth! The fact of the matter is, "science" in its general sense as a discipline has been severely perverted. Eg. Studying the origin of life, or searching for a possible cause, just because evolution requires it, is not scientific method. These a priori "facts" have led to wild goose chases for years, resulting in theories built on top of theories. Its sad how the general public eat up evolution propaganda, yes, the whale story is propaganda, like lucy, archeopteryx, etc. Very few can take an honest look at the criticism and the core problems that are raised for the theory, and look past the usual poster boys that are paraded in front of everyone. Have you done some reading on information theory and its implication on genetics? What about the complexity of complicated biological systems? What about reductionism in metaphysical philosophy? Most people don't know that evolution theory is not as watertight as it is claimed to be.

and that is all... I have to say... about that < forest gump

[RiaX]

sigh my school grade debating skills you say ? ok should i start providing citations for commonly known things?

secondly you have added basically nothing to the topic and finally im not foaming at the mouth lol you people arent important enough to make me angry sorry

[PingPong]

Its sad how the general public eat up evolution propaganda, yes, the whale story is propaganda, like lucy, archeopteryx, etc.

Can you explain to me how a series of fossils displaying gradual changes over millions of years leading to a species that currently exists is not evidence in favour of evolution?

I'm happy to have an open mind about these things but I will always follow the evidence. You make numerous claims but don't present any evidence in support of those claims. I haven't delved deeply into the areas you mentioned but we can't all be experts on everything. If you have any specific evidence against evolution then please post it.

[rustypup]

he is sitting at his computer foaming at the brain

it's always the brain... the mouth is reserved for delicious whiskey...

i take no issue with anyone looking to engage in actual debate, (which RiaX is doing).. i get that the quality of the debate has dropped off somewhat but compared to the sheer volume of theatrical ranting this thread has witnessed in the past i'm willing to accept pretty much anything that looks vaguely original/thought out/sensible in place of the run-of-the-mill "i'm a dimbulb with a keyboard and i can has an uninformed opinion about something i know nothing about. raaghr!"

i say we make it a rule that anyone looking to engage in the debate has to prove they've read the preceding posts... that way we can flush out the insincere spammers/trolls and get back to the more entertaining facets of the discussion...

[RiaX]

they have no evidence against the theory of evolution, all they can do is point out the flaws and ignore the facts. Allow me to give a quick summary

Darwin emphasized, there is variation amoung individuals in all populations or groups of organisms. Therefore, the many different species of finches darwin observed on the Galapagos are descended from a single populaton through the process of natural selection. Just as the members of this population of finches were genetically different, so are any group of organisms, including bacteria that cause disease
When your grandparents were young, infectious diseases such as tuberculosis, pneumonia and syphilis killed thousands of people every year. Then in the 1940s, penicillin and other antibiotics were developed, and public health officials believed infectious diseases were a thing of the past. Today, however, tuberculosis, pneumonia and many aliments are back with a vebgeance.
What happend? Natural selection occured.
To take an example, certain tubercular bacteria happend to be resistant to the standard antibiotic treatment. Where as non resistant bacteria die off, antibiotic-resistant bacteria survive and reproduce. Now 50 years later, several strains of "super bugs" that cause various illnesses cannot be killed by antibiotics. One type of bacteria actually feeds on the antibiotic vancomycin

- Mader, S, Sylvia. 2004. Biology eighth edition. pg 301. McGraw hill publishing

i can provide you with over 100 sources of information on antibiotic resistance, and i can prove it to you in a lab and i can show you the method of resistance as well on a cellular level. Adpation is evolution in its most basic mannor. Now i challenge you to try and say microevolution does not exist


@ rusty depends what whiskey you talking about D:

[-Prometheus-]

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[Prime]

Creationist: Err... you can't prove evolution.
Evolutionist: It doesn't matter. You can't prove God so YOU are wrong.

How can you say that? Our claim is that we can prove it. It is a fact. You haven't refuted a single piece of evidence that Riax presented for you in such a neat and concise manner. The genetic evidence aside (the mountains of it), there exists heaps of fossil evidence too, for almost every animal: Go look at the evolutionary tree for any species. You will see gradual changes in the species from it's first form (the first fossil found) to it's current form. One particularly striking example is the whale. We have fossils showing us how the eyes gradually moved backwards over time and legs retreated into the body, all over the space of about 50 million years.

So the actual way your dialogue should read is:

Creationist: You can't prove evolution
Evolutionist: Actually we can. Here is all the evidence. Where's yours?

Nope. Every honest scientist so far has said they can't. What you have is speculation based on neutral evidence. I haven't refuted a single piece of evidence because I didn't see any presented in between all the ad hominems and false assumptions. If there was any I'm sorry I missed it and you can present it again without attacking me and my beliefs as they are not the subject. I am talking of single evidence here and not a whole subject where I have to pick out everything and refute it all as I'm not writing a book here.

OH MY WORD. Explain to me what antibiotic resistance is, if it isnt evolution.

what do you see it as ?

Mutation. It has been observed for millenia. For centuries people have been selectively breeding dogs to produce a large variation of breeds. I don't think any species has naturally been observed to undergo so much change. YET, correct me if I'm wrong here, but it's still one single species capable of having fertile offspring!

Now you apply this principle of mutation and variation and say it is capable of producing anything from anything else over time. This is another fallacy. By applying more than one meaning to a term and using them interchangeably it brings science into disrepute. I will choose the meaning I think is most often intended and say that it's unproven, because it is. No, you will choose the meaning that suits you, because that's all you have done this entire debate

sigh my school grade debating skills you say ? ok should i start providing citations for commonly known things?

secondly you have added basically nothing to the topic and finally im not foaming at the mouth lol you people arent important enough to make me angry sorry

I think he was referring mostly to the way Rusty is behaving. He has this huge criticism of creation but has provided NOTHING to refute anything that I said. That's because you haven't actually gotten past semantics and provided a single meaningful piece of well referenced evidence. All you've done is try and subvert the questions! Now here is a challenge, let's see if he can take part in a rational manner or if he's just like Rwenzori on myfraudband that was the most vocal yet I can't remember him ever providing a single piece of evidence to even attempt to prove evolution.

they have no evidence against the theory of evolution, all they can do is point out the flaws and ignore the facts.

Oh but indeed some of the same evidence is used to make an argument for creation and all you can do is point out the flaws and ignore the facts. So you are doing exactly what you are accusing your opponent of doing. I do not have to provide evidence to counter it in order to point out the flaws. Yeah, you actually do. That's the first rule of debating. Show me that God doesn't exist. Prove There isn't a teapot orbiting round jupiter

First you provide evidence to disprove the oppositions argument, then you provide evidence to prove the alternative.

You can't claim argument B is valid because Argument A is False.
That's like saying it must be sunny because it's not raining.



Now go name a reputable biologist that disagrees with Evolution and state his or her reasons...go on, I dare you. Then this debate might go somewhere, otherwise I can see a mod locking this thread

Edit:

[RiaX]

look at the definition of evolution dude "Evolution is the change over time in one or more inherited traits found in populations of organisms. Inherited traits are particular distinguishing characteristics, including anatomical, biochemical or behavioural characteristics, that result from gene–environment interactions. Evolution may occur when there is variation of inherited traits within a population. The major sources of such variation are mutation, genetic recombination and gene flow."

key word there is mutation.

You introduce an antibiotic to bacteria, they will EVOLVE to be resistant if you are below the MIC. By adding that antibiotic you are changing the environment the bacteria stay in. They then develope methods to cope with that new environmental change. This adaptation for survival is evolution and its achieved through two methods. 1) Natural selection, those that do not develope the necessary organelles will die. 2) Those that survive will continue to thrive because they have adapted genetically. Perhaps you should investigate this more thoroughly before you try and pull a fast one by just using a synonym and claiming misconception. This is fact, resistant strains of bacteria are real their evolutionary progress is real hence why all us health professionals are running around like headless chickens because we are running out of antibiotics and antivirals to choose.

Oh but indeed some of the same evidence is used to make an argument for creation and all you can do is point out the flaws and ignore the facts. So you are doing exactly what you are accusing your opponent of doing. I do not have to provide evidence to counter it in order to point out the flaws. Show me that God doesn't exist.

err what facts? please list them for me like how i did in an earlier post which you completely ignored and still claim i have no backing

LOL lucky you not a doctor hey. Patient "Dr Dr i got MDR TB help!" , "na no such thing as evolution you be fine".

It has been observed for millenia. For centuries people have been selectively breeding dogs to produce a large variation of breeds. I don't think any species has naturally been observed to undergo so much change

Thats called artificial selection its still used today to boost the disired genetic traits in animals like horses for racing ect. That is still an evolutionary process, are you going to claim that all dogs are mutated accidents? Thanks man you have given me an excellent example.

All dogs have a common ancestor and btw dogs are about 14 000 year old as a species articifical selection is extremely fast

All dogs, Canis Familiaris, are descended from the wolf, Canis lupus

Now for natural selection i've already given you an example bacteria, now dont say something stupid like a dog is complex and a bacterium is unicellular. For a complex organism only one thing must change the DNA in the gametes, which is a single cell. This is where your idea of mutation comes in, you cant evolve once you fully formed with our method of reproduction, so genetic drift in an adult results usually in cancer (formation of immortal cells). That is the mutation you are implying and its incorrect in the sense of antibiotic resistance because of the reproduction method of bacteria which is binary fission.

Today we realise with genes, along with the environment, determine the phenotype of an organism, and that mutations and recombination of alleles during sexual reproduction can cause new variations to arise

oh yes one last example for you, HUMAN evolution, i didnt want to use this cause its not entirely clear but i will put it forward. Instead of me explaining it it took me months to learn this section of health and its a PAIN. Look into sickle cell anaemia and how it combats malaria. That is adaption in humans one of the corner stones for evolution. I want you to read up on this because all I have is professional experience with malaria and what I was taught by my professors that is why im not giving a source either. I think its in Lippincot's Pharmacology 3rd ed cant remember

edit damnit prime why you always have better jokes and in picture form !!:( now my little doctor doctor remark is noob

[-Prometheus-]

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[PingPong]

Prime wrote:
Now go name a reputable biologist that disagrees with Evolution and state his or her reasons...go on, I dare you. Then this debate might go somewhere, otherwise I can see a mod locking this thread

There are many. Everyone probably disagrees with something about it so that should already tell you you can't frame your "argument" by encompassing it in one word. Stop making unreasonable demands and this "debate" might get somewhere.

If there are many then could you give us just one as an example please. Emphasis on "reputable".

[Prime]

Prime wrote:
Now go name a reputable biologist that disagrees with Evolution and state his or her reasons...go on, I dare you. Then this debate might go somewhere, otherwise I can see a mod locking this thread

There are many. Everyone probably disagrees with something about it so that should already tell you you can't frame your "argument" by encompassing it in one word. Stop making unreasonable demands and this "debate" might get somewhere.

If there are many then could you give us just one as an example please. Emphasis on "reputable".

That would require him to provide a reference. He has proven that he is incapable of doing just that.

Prove There isn't a teapot orbiting round jupiter

Oh man, that you even took the bait on that one.

Reductio ad absurdum

[-Prometheus-]

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[-Prometheus-]

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[PingPong]

Steven Gould. Though he did not have a good reputation among his "mates"

He was a respected biologist amongst his peers. I'm afraid you are mistaken if you don't think he was a proponent of evolution though. He committed his life to studying evolution and definitely endorsed it as fact. Where the controversy lies is how he thought evolution occurs. He created the theory of punctuated equilibrium, which states that evolution is characterized by long periods of stability, and then sudden explosions of branching evolution. The current paradigm is that evolution is characterized by gradual constant changes over time. Irrelevant to a creationism vs. evolution debate though.

He taught evolution at universities and even campaigned against creationism. How is this an example of someone who disagrees with evolution??

Oh the fallacies again...

By reputable I simply meant someone who has studied biology at a tertiary level and has a qualification in a biological field. Not unreasonable surely?

[Prime]

If there are many then could you give us just one as an example please.

Steven Gould. Though he did not have a good reputation among his "mates"

Reductio ad absurdum

Ammunition for my rifle

Hey, if you can worship a god with no proof he exists, why can't I worship the teapot orbiting jupiter. You have no proof there isn't one.

On the subject of Steven Jay Gould, you might want to do some reading. They just disagreed on sociobiology and evolutionary psychology. He was a strong supporter of evolution, and well respected amongst his peers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Jay_Gould (I don't like wiki, but it's a good starting point for references)
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/autho ... gould.html

[JollyJamma]

Riax has said everything I wanted to say including counter arguments with proof.

What's amazing is that the proof for evolution goes down as so far as pure numbers and math.
It makes sense in Biology through breeding and DNA, physics through the big bang and gravity and the way animals evolve to cope with conditions to even basic thing such as mathematical numbers of animals required and their probability of evolution.

[RiaX]

sigh im going to apply prometheus tactics.

"Nope you wrong"

[JollyJamma]

sigh im going to apply prometheus tactics.

"Nope you wrong"

It's so true. Nothing to back the claim up, just the sentence and something about mutation being a different word to evolution.


I don't following anything unless I see proof. I need hard concrete evidence that can be explained and tested.
Science can prove evolution all over the world and use the same techniques and others to come to the same conclusion.

It may take one scientist to come up with the theory but it takes many scientists to back him up to make it reality and they way they do that is through their own experiments. Darwin is a case in point. His theory is recognized and loved by all, well nearly all, and his studies took ages to come to the conclusion. Not just one weekend spent in the stream in the summer.

He is a hero of mine and one of the most significant people of science.

[-Prometheus-]

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[Anakha56]

Giving up so soon. I know evolution can't stand up to scrutiny but I didn't expect THAT.

I have to chime in here...

Creationism does not stand up to scrutiny either. Classic scenario of pot calling the kettle black...

Prometheus how about we reverse the roles? For quite some time it has been Riax giving examples and then you refute them with word play and give no evidence for your claims. So how about this, you give us your evidence and let us try and debunk yours? Of course it will need to come with evidence and please lets not use Dr Dino.