Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Kher-za · Post by **Kher-za** » 16 Aug 2005, 08:58

it took me forever to scroll to the bottom of this page.

capanno · Post by **capanno** » 16 Aug 2005, 09:09

Most evidence for evolution is either lies, or plain asumptions. Thats why I dont even consider studying it. Its not even a good theory. If it was a bit more logical, then yes, its a good theory. I dont see logic in a simple cell growing into humans. And Id rather say that my great great great great great ... grandpa was created by God, than to say my great great great ... grandpa was a slime. WHOS YOUR DADDY?! Hey thats just me! Maybe evolutionists just like to brag about their family being spineless, mindless balls of snot! But of course you can believe what you want!

Maybe my Oreo cookie planetary theory is more logical than this!

QBM · Post by **QBM** » 16 Aug 2005, 09:26

Capanno_Del_Kimakigami wrote:Most evidence for evolution is either lies, or plain asumptions. Thats why I dont even consider studying it. Its not even a good theory. If it was a bit more logical, then yes, its a good theory. I dont see logic in a simple cell growing into humans.

I agree. A magic guy in the sky is much more logical.

rustypup · Post by **rustypup** » 16 Aug 2005, 09:37

this thread has fallen prey to graffiti...

Capanno_Del_Kimakigami wrote:Most evidence for evolution is either lies, or plain asumptions.

wonderful. Your argument is so convincing I have decided to use it as the bases of a thesis which will subsequently prove so groundbreaking that all nay-sayers will bow down to your superior knowledge in this respect... <sarcasm intended>

Capanno_Del_Kimakigami wrote: Thats why I dont even consider studying it. Its not even a good theory.

Brilliant! millions of intelligent people have spent hundreds of years deluding themselves and will now see the error of their ways... <noddy badge>

Capanno_Del_Kimakigami wrote:If it was a bit more logical, then yes, its a good theory. I dont see logic in a simple cell growing into humans.

I don't see the logic in a supreme being who runs around creating universes to be compassionate at.. it speaks to a troubled psyche that...

Capanno_Del_Kimakigami wrote:And Id rather say that my great great great great great ... grandpa was created by God, than to say my great great great ... grandpa was a slime. WHOS YOUR DADDY?! Hey thats just me! Maybe evolutionists just like to brag about their family being spineless, mindless balls of snot! But of course you can believe what you want!

correct... I have managed to retain my belief that this sort of post proves that it takes all sorts to evolve into cheese...

ignorance as a means of defending your position... wonderful... I'm sure it will serve you well in the future...

could someone from the opposite camp please post something bordering on sane and reasonable debate ...

capanno · Post by **capanno** » 16 Aug 2005, 09:45

Ag come on no need to get grumpy! Im sorry if that irritated you. Of course thats no real debate post! Its just me posting my oppinion. If I intend to debate I will post links and references.

Post by **Anakha56** » 16 Aug 2005, 09:49

cap title is "Official Debate" to many ppl are giving personal opinion's. that is why rusty, and when Kronos arrives, Kronos are irritated because people are not willing to explore this conversation/debate.

Has anyone considerd the fact that the HIV gene's ( i am not sure of my terms) are the same in both Humans and Apes? if we were created then why did we get some ape genes mixed in with us? You could say the reason why humans get aids is because we evolved from apes and that HIV gene eveolved with us and therefore eithe got stronger or weaker. i seriously need to do more homework, cause it sounds right but looks wrong...

HIV in Chimps

*edit 2* i cannot find much to support that theory but i am loking at a few new ones. so ignore unless some1 has anything to add.

capanno · Post by **capanno** » 16 Aug 2005, 09:54

Alright, well Im still waiting for answers on questions I asked. And also since there's no answers yet for the stuff ripper posted, its all hanging in the air! Talk about debate...

Sorry for posting my oppinion.

Nuke · Post by **Nuke** » 16 Aug 2005, 09:58

Umm Capanno, QBM posted 2 links

Ahhh I won't bother rebutting each of those since others have done it for me:
http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/matson-v.htm

http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/icdmyst/ICDmyst.html

Post by **Anakha56** » 16 Aug 2005, 10:19

Will this make an evolution theory more likely?

What about this one?

rustypup · Post by **rustypup** » 16 Aug 2005, 10:36

@capanno - sorry bud.. for some reason I get worked up when in the middle of a debate someone stands up and says "You don't believe me? well you're just a big stinky head... so there.." which is more or less what happened on the previous page.. .

@Anakha56... good question, but ask how the infection moved between the species. IIRC there is a theory that it was as a result of infected chimps being used in the development of the polio vaccine.... (will verify).

Along similar lines, the previous comparison between chimp and human DNA which was said to be tiny has perhaps been debunked, here, which cannot be good news for all those getting ready to provide evolutionary arguments based on minor DNA mutation. This is perhaps why focus moved from the species in question to its mitochondrial DNA... see... even evolutionists get it wrong....

Post by **Anakha56** » 16 Aug 2005, 10:39

right so there went that idea, time to carry doing some homework...

QBM · Post by **QBM** » 16 Aug 2005, 10:49

rustypup wrote:@capanno - sorry bud.. for some reason I get worked up when in the middle of a debate someone stands up and says "You don't believe me? well you're just a big stinky head... so there.." which is more or less what happened on the previous page.. .

@Anakha56... good question, but ask how the infection moved between the species. IIRC there is a theory that it was as a result of infected chimps being used in the development of the polio vaccine.... (will verify).

Along similar lines, the previous comparison between chimp and human DNA which was said to be tiny has perhaps been debunked, here, which cannot be good news for all those getting ready to provide evolutionary arguments based on minor DNA mutation. This is perhaps why focus moved from the species in question to its mitochondrial DNA... see... even evolutionists get it wrong....

:confused;Why would that change anything really?

QBM · Post by **QBM** » 16 Aug 2005, 10:58

Well since this isn't a debate and people are just throwing around what they personally believe or are parroting someone elses beliefs without fact checking I'll just add my thoughts on the subject.

I am not arrogant enough to think I know either way. In no real order:

1. A creator does not have to be "God".

2. A creator could exist outside of the universe, in another universe, or be an evolutionary product of the universe. Of course there are other ways for "him" to exist beyond our wildest imagination.

3. Science does not say there can't be a creator.

4.Religion has no place in intelligent design. If intelligent design ever becomes testable and prevails then the zealots can argue over which of their gods if any did it.

5. People seem to forget when there textbooks were written. Some of the arguements against evolution are laughable and are based on information that is far from up to date. In other words we didn't evolve from monkeys.

6. We don't know how life formed on earth. My personal guess would be it was either a result of the moon collision impact or it was seeded by the other planet involved. Of course it could be neither.

7. Life could have started several times on earth. We could be the result of one of many attempts at life. We could also coexist now with other strains of life that have survived or for that matter started yesterday. Remember....what you see is just the tip of the iceberg.

to be continued...........

Post by **Anakha56** » 16 Aug 2005, 11:19

i dont really know much about this subject so i am sitting on the fence trying to figure out who has the greenest grass

my question to the evo's: if we, and by that i mean every living being cold or warm blooded, came out of the same primordeal (sp) soup surely there should be something that is the same between all of us? that could be a link?

Post by **ryanrich** » 16 Aug 2005, 11:27

Very interesting theories QBM...

Post by **Anakha56** » 16 Aug 2005, 11:41

An article which explains how humans and chimps broke apart

QBM · Post by **QBM** » 16 Aug 2005, 11:45

Anakha56 wrote:i dont really know much about this subject so i am sitting on the fence trying to figure out who has the greenest grass

my question to the evo's: if we, and by that i mean every living being cold or warm blooded, came out of the same primordeal (sp) soup surely there should be something that is the same between all of us? that could be a link?

DNA my friend.....and left handed amino acids

capanno · Post by **capanno** » 16 Aug 2005, 12:26

Anakha, the content of that article is pure speculation. That reasures me everytime I read "this happend 6 mil years ago", like its a fact. There's no recorded history even a fraction of that time ago. You have to imagine all this happening. Thats the only way it can happen: in your imagination.

rustypup · Post by **rustypup** » 16 Aug 2005, 13:20

QBM wrote:1. A creator does not have to be "God".

agreed...

QBM wrote:2. A creator could exist outside of the universe, in another universe, or be an evolutionary product of the universe. Of course there are other ways for "him" to exist beyond our wildest imagination.

similar to the point I made earlier re. continuous creation...

QBM wrote:3. Science does not say there can't be a creator.

agreed...

QBM wrote:4.Religion has no place in intelligent design. If intelligent design ever becomes testable and prevails then the zealots can argue over which of their gods if any did it.

hmmm ... in most cases correct, however I have some reservations about humanity... I am still unsure whether "intelligent" design is the phrase I would use...

QBM wrote:5. People seem to forget when there textbooks were written. Some of the arguements against evolution are laughable and are based on information that is far from up to date. In other words we didn't evolve from monkeys.

you still can't declare that as fact..

we share a great deal with our furry cousins... but it would be more accurate to say that we "share an ancestor" as opposed to we "evolved from"....

QBM wrote:6. We don't know how life formed on earth. My personal guess would be it was either a result of the moon collision impact or it was seeded by the other planet involved. Of course it could be neither.

hmm... external influence as a catalyst... quite possible and would explain the abundance of commenality shared between species...

QBM wrote:7. Life could have started several times on earth. We could be the result of one of many attempts at life. We could also coexist now with other strains of life that have survived or for that matter started yesterday. Remember....what you see is just the tip of the iceberg.

quite a bit of evidence that this is may be the case, which would handily explain the sudden appearance/disappearance issue , (a little too handy maybe....?)

@Anakha56 :- the common-all-garden cell...?, (plant and animal)

Post by **Anakha56** » 16 Aug 2005, 13:22

cap your reply isnt the greatest and heres why. you say evolution can only take place in one imagination due to it happening 6 million years ago. the exact same can be said about creationist and there theory of some1 creating us.

jee · Post by **jee** » 16 Aug 2005, 14:41

Capanno_Del_Kimakigami wrote:Ag come on no need to get grumpy! Im sorry if that irritated you. Of course thats no real debate post! Its just me posting my oppinion. If I intend to debate I will post links and references.

Well then Cappanno_Del_Kimakigami, STAY OUT OF THIS THREAD. If you cannot debate, bring up sources that prove that the Bible is the absolute truth and that is the reason you believe in it, please do not ramble. Spam in other threads please? Some of us would really like to have some decent debate, even though it is way beyond what we believe.

Have respect for what others believe, even though it cuts against your grain. This thread is not for your beliefs, as was said several times, its to discuss things like the Neanderthal Man, and Hebrew translations, and Wars that destroyed cultures and their written heritage so that much of the information was transfered via oral traditions - mostly by simple men whose lives revolved around their little worlds, whose perceptions are so much different than what it is today, its about the Big Bang theory, and Carbon dating, Demiurge (well Kronos does not really wants us to debate that and I think he is wrong) and the use of scientific laws.

I do not have time to read all the other posts in detail - I will do it later, and will comment on it.

My plea for those of you who are just being obstreperous because you are using blind faith to abstain from irritating rest of us.

jbayman · Post by **jbayman** » 16 Aug 2005, 15:57

jee wrote: Firstly Ripper hunni, this thread is not an attack on anyones' beliefs.

Uhhh, yes it is actually.
How would you get someone hovering to say "Wow, you have a point"?
Well you have to disprove the "other" theory, and prove yours, so in disproving the other theory, you are in fact attacking someone else's belief.

Post by **Y0da** » 16 Aug 2005, 16:17

Capanno_Del_Kimakigami[color=red] wrote:Most evidence for evolution is either lies, or plain asumptions. Thats why I dont even consider studying it.[/color] Its not even a good theory. If it was a bit more logical, then yes, its a good theory. I dont see logic in a simple cell growing into humans. And Id rather say that my great great great great great ... grandpa was created by God, than to say my great great great ... grandpa was a slime. WHOS YOUR DADDY?! Hey thats just me! Maybe evolutionists just like to brag about their family being spineless, mindless balls of snot! But of course you can believe what you want!

Maybe my Oreo cookie planetary theory is more logical than this!

Then how on earth can you contest it? You cannot argue over something you know nothing about! Debates require facts and a good debater will always know ALL the facts. In order to give a counter argument you must understand and know what your opponent is talking about. This statement just proof how narrow minded you are.

But my dear man, the Bible requires you to abandon all logic and believe in God even though there are no 'scientific' evidence to support His excistance. We only have a promise that you will be saved if you believe and serve Him. So why should logic be the base of anybody else's believes?

Logic is something you will just never get the hang of. Trust me.

And just for the record. I am a believer in God but I have long ago learned to take them blinkers of me eyes and see the world for what it realy is. A whole lot of experiences and knowledge.

capanno · Post by **capanno** » 16 Aug 2005, 21:00

OK this is getting wierd. Yes I missed the point of what is the preferred content of a post here, and now I know. I apologize.

YOda, alrighty then. Whatever you say. To comment on what you wrote in red, kronos stated in the first post of this thread that its also a learning curve for noob debaters. Well I wont argue that Im a total noob! So Im still learning, and I definitely didnt know that this thread was so serious that Im not allowed to joke around and post my oppinions.

How can a debater have ALL the facts? Then there would be nothing to talk about, cause the truth will be known...

jee · Post by **jee** » 16 Aug 2005, 21:46

Anakha, you have opened up a new can of worms with your HIV theory. It is believed that the virus started in Africa, and if you look at studies done on monkeys in West Africa, (monkeys from Asia and South America have never been found to have SIVs that could cause HIV in humans) you will find that they have SIV, the "monkey" version. This virus is similar (or viral ancestor as one site refer to it) to the HIV virus. Buut... this virus evolved, and "jumped" species to chimps.

Various theories exists regarding the how of spreading the virus from ape to man, the first, the "hunter" theory - hunter kills chimp, eats infected meat, gets blood all over his hands that have several cuts to it. For more this have some interesting facts.

OPV method

A question.. in reading on this issue, several of the authors mentioned the "mutation" of the HIV, SIV and AIDS virusses. Will that be evolution?