PCFormat Forum Archive

KALSTER wrote:I voted no. Your intelligence dies, but who you were lives on in those around you (not just in a genetic way).

For some, intelligence dies long before the body.

I intend on living forever. So far, so good

Seriously though, dying sucks, 'cause then you lose a very important part of your life

O_o

jamin_za wrote:What are you smoking

Let me respond in kind:

We all affect each other in some way, obviously. Culture trends and the public consciousness do not evolve on its own.

For some, intelligence dies long before the body.

Assuming of course it was there to begin with.

KALSTER wrote:We all affect each other in some way, obviously. Culture trends and the public consciousness do not evolve on its own.

Culture, trends and "public consciousness" (whatever that means) are not influenced by the individual - if you consider the infinitesimally small contribution the average person will make to our collective culture in their lifetime...
You will influence your immediate family and friends, and they will influence theirs etc. But if you consider this small abstract ripple in our collective worthy of note as a legacy, or even measurable to any degree, you are smoking something.

Tribble wrote:I think the potential for life after death exists - but it is in no means a certainty.

What do you know that the rest of us don't? Why do you think that it may be a possibility?

jamin_za wrote:Culture, trends and "public consciousness" (whatever that means) are not influenced by the individual - if you consider the infinitesimally small contribution the average person will make to our collective culture in their lifetime...
You will influence your immediate family and friends, and they will influence theirs etc. But if you consider this small abstract ripple in our collective worthy of note as a legacy, or even measurable to any degree, you are smoking something.

This sounds perilously similar to the "One vote won't make a difference, so I might as well not vote" argument.

Obviously the average guy's contribution to the public consciousness (the non-genetic difference between the earliest Homo sapiens sapiens and modern man) is infinitesimally small, but it is nonetheless there. Single people often do affect the public consciousness to a significant degree and they were in turn influenced by an enormous array of people throughout their lives in an almost infinite number of ways.

Chaos works in mysterious ways.

Edit: With public consciousness I was referring to our Sociocultural evolution.

KALSTER wrote:I was referring to our Sociocultural evolution.

extelligence

Death is a holiday. I for one cant wait to take it. Maybe I will visit those boring Vogons...

KALSTER wrote:Obviously the average guy's contribution to the public consciousness (the non-genetic difference between the earliest Homo sapiens sapiens and modern man) is infinitesimally small, but it is nonetheless there.

I already agreed with that.
My point is that can you call that tiny smidge of an influence immortality...

Single people often do affect the public consciousness to a significant degree

No they dont. People who influence culture to a measurable degree are few and far between. There are 40 million people in our country. I doubt you could name 400 people alive today that influenced SA culture to a measurable degree for any extended period of time... Thats a ratiio of less than 1:100000

This sounds perilously similar to the "One vote won't make a difference, so I might as well not vote" argument.

No it does not, but if I said your life wont affect SA culture in any measurable way so you might as well stop living, it would.
Want some rope

This thread certainly proves that the dead are among us and even the dead can sprout silly ideas.

Like life after death

StarPhoenix wrote:

Tribble wrote:I think the potential for life after death exists - but it is in no means a certainty.

What do you know that the rest of us don't? Why do you think that it may be a possibility?

Tribs is 'at one' with those of a feline persuasion. Possibly her insight is to do with the nine lives thing?

What are ghosts/spirits?

lancelot wrote:What are ghosts/spirits?

The product of overactive imaginations.

rustypup wrote:

KALSTER wrote:I was referring to our Sociocultural evolution.

extelligence

Interesting, but do other people count as sources of extelligence?

My point is that can you call that tiny smidge of an influence immortality

I look at the whole thing as the evolution of man as a species. We are all part of a whole. So while your individual intelligence dies, your influences continue to perpetuate. Perhaps they quickly dissipate and mingle and quickly lose recognizability, but they undoubtedly add to the flow of human existence. It is like a ball rolling down a very large hill. Eventually the ball gets to the bottom, but each innumerable pebble along the way helped determine where along the base it would end up.

I think one can call it immortality in a certain sense, because I don't think any life can have the distinction of not affecting any other. We don't have souls though.

No they dont. People who influence culture to a measurable degree are few and far between.

Its almost like you have an arbitrary threshold that someone has to cross to be "measurable". I see it as a matter of degree, rather than a matter of yes or no. I also don't have to be able to name the individuals and what impact they had to know that such influences exist.

No it does not, but if I said your life wont affect SA culture in any measurable way so you might as well stop living, it would.

I meant the first part of the argument that essentially argues that individuals don't matter.

Want some rope

I've always fancied myself as more of a jumper.

Whooohooo PLayer I don't intend to die Wins

KALSTER wrote:I think one can call it immortality in a certain sense, because I don't think any life can have the distinction of not affecting any other.

The butterfly effect... chaos theory... it's all true, but not to the degree you purpose.

I also don't have to be able to name the individuals and what impact they had to know that such influences exist.

Thats a nice catch 22 circle-jerk you have going there.
Kind of like theists who dont need proof that God exists to know he's real

I meant the first part of the argument that essentially argues that individuals don't matter.

I am a firm believer that for the most part, they dont. Not on their own. As part of a greater whole they do, but inconsequentially. Look at political organisations: the old Nats and the ANC. Each will have far-reaching effects on our country and culture - but only a few individuals will stand out. Verwoed, DeKlerk, Mandela, Hani... but not the many millions of party members who made up the numbers. Pick out a random member from each party roster and statistically, the chances are overwheling that they could have never existed and it would not change our present situation one iota.

If you are content with considering that kind of anonymity a legacy of any kind well done on lowering the bar on mediocrity.

KALSTER wrote:do other people count as sources of extelligence?

Complicity (PDF!)
Emergence Theory (PDF!)

why wouldn't they? they act is extelligence sinks, processors, modifiers and propagators...

Screeper wrote:

StarPhoenix wrote:

Tribble wrote:I think the potential for life after death exists - but it is in no means a certainty.

What do you know that the rest of us don't? Why do you think that it may be a possibility?

Tribs is 'at one' with those of a feline persuasion. Possibly her insight is to do with the nine lives thing?

cat lives aside..... we are made up of "formed" energy (apparently everything is). I call it formed as we do appear solid, and I have yet to wrap my head around how energy can be solid. When we die - I believe we become inert energy - or unformed if you like. We will probably just float out into the rest of the inert energy. But all inert energy has the potential to be active - it just needs to be used.

I am sure that the energy of what we are has a consciousness of some sort - by that I mean that we are aware. By joining with the other energy - we become aware of so much more.

Well - it is an idea anyway.

@Tribble - Monday I found an article on ars technica about a theory about dark matter/dark ennergy. If the existence of dark matter is proved (by the LHC) then it means that we can understand the situation in the universe 1x10^-10 seconds after the big bang. (Just to all the religious people out there - why is it so difficult to accept the big bang theory? I am a Christian and find it unthinkable that God is not involved in everything. Who are we to say that it is impossible for God to have created everything BY A BIG BANG!)

If the dark matter theories is proven correct, it will mean that there is an energy defficiency in the known universe of about 10^64 - That is one big number! We all know that ennergy cannot be created, it can only change form (chemical to electric, etc). I would like to think that this "missing" energy is actually God! Who knows? It is just a case of faith!

Regarding life after death - I agree that the deceased live on among us - at least in out hearts! But true living on after death? Well - we will ALL one day learn the answer to that one! I also think that when we die our life force (energy) or soul has to go somewhere, maybe being reborn into a new baby? It cannot just disappear!

jamin_za wrote:

lancelot wrote:What are ghosts/spirits?

The product of overactive imaginations.

ja boet....

i think that having bruise marks from a spirit is an overactive imagination. Funny that everyone who saw it, skeptics included, have such imaginations

Mykhal wrote:when we die our life force (energy) or soul has to go somewhere

worm food or fuel for the fire...

once the squidgy mess of neurons has powered down, you're history... your cells will continue to function until the available oxygen has been depleted at which point they'll shut down and surrender their constituent parts, (those not yet processed by opportunist scavengers, and certainly not nail/hair/bone as these provide virtually zero nutritional benefit), back into the soil where they will become a vibrant focus point of bacterial activity, who's by-product is plant food...

it would be fair to say that, barring man's intervention, your death precludes your reincarnation as some amino acids in a big mac... possibly with mustard.

nothing there about disappearing...

Ghosts / spirits could also be an extension of the "energy-theory" I mentioned.

I do not say that ghosts and spirits do exist! I just believe that there is a possibility that they might!
(Actually that is also my position on aliens)

jee wrote:i think that having bruise marks from a spirit is an overactive imagination.

Me too!

*will teach me not to post in threads like this when i'm high on meds.....gigglez - jee*

Mykhal wrote:Ghosts / spirits could also be an extension of the "energy-theory" I mentioned.

I do not say that ghosts and spirits do exist! I just believe that there is a possibility that they might!
(Actually that is also my position on aliens)

Too much Avatar for Tribble and Mykhal methinks. If you're going to be all transcendental about physics, rather think string theory