Your Contentious Issue for today:Oath of Allegiance

[KillerByte]

The American kids have to say an oath. Has it really made them better people? Don't some of the world's worst serial killers come from the USA?

Personally I think we need a bit more patriotism in South Africa. Look at the Afrikaans people, if anything they are the proudest people in the country - they love their culture and are proud of it. Unfortunately they seem to be the only ones in SA. A pledge to make the children proud of their country is not a bad idea.

If we had something like,

"I oath to honour the flag, the constitution and the values of South Africa.
A nation united by our differences,
a land of equality and understanding.
May truth and justice be our guides,
and our forefathers our advisors."

[rustypup]

Having an oath/pledge of allegiance/agreement to stand by your country and support humane values, morals and ethical codes is most definitely a worhtwhile activity, I don't think many people would honestly disagree with that.

how much money would you like to lay down on the table?

morals, ethics and social values are not derived from the farcical pipe-dream that is repetitive brainwashing.. we pick these up from family and friends...

history has taught us on more than one occasion what polarised nationalists are capable of in the atrocity stakes... and you think this is a good thing?

i ask purely for my educational benefit, and not out of any desire to appear to be confrontational

[UrBaN]

Ok Rusty, question for you:

Would you say a country is better off without moral/ethical values?

If we consider morals to be the agreed upon rules and behavioural guidelines by which a family/group/company/nation abide by, then surely it would be a beneficial thing? Of course, in a situation where the 'morals' are laid down by suppressive/evil/stupid government and are biased or alteriorly motivated, you are of course going to run into disagreements, arguments etc. Hell, they could even cause a revolt. However, if the people are in disagreement to the extent that they revolt (history has numerous instances of this) then these couldn't be connsidered morals, but dictatorial law.

Rusty, how do you define what you can or cannot do, in terms of right and wrong (moral/immoral). You surely have a moral code of sorts, whether one of your own design or one you have agreed with and adopted. If that is the case, how then can you disagree that morals are an important and necessary factor of societal existence?

Not to be argumentative, just curious

[Tribble]

If we had something like,

"I oath to honour the flag, the constitution and the values of South Africa.
A nation united by our differences,
a land of equality and understanding.
May truth and justice be our guides,
and our forefathers our advisors."

@KB - I am really impressed. Now that is something thought out and workable.

[KillerByte]

rusty not being confrotational lol. just joking.

I believe a nation that is united and proud of itself can do great things (Yes Germany went to the dark side but what if they didn't, could they have developed to be the greatest most advanced nation on Earth?) Any power can be used for either good or evil. Right now this country is in the gutter, maybe a bit of pride would help to get it out of the gutter.

[KillerByte]

If we had something like,

"I oath to honour the flag, the constitution and the values of South Africa.
A nation united by our differences,
a land of equality and understanding.
May truth and justice be our guides,
and our forefathers our advisors."

@KB - I am really impressed. Now that is something thought out and workable.

Thank you trib.

That little piece I came up with now at work, just for interest sake let me tell you what certain parts of it mean.

"I oath to honour the flag, the constitution and values of South Africa"

This line is obvious, I mentioned the flag because it means so much and it is a symbol of our differences.

A nation united by our differences,

Again, we are all different and we can learn a lot from each other.

a land of equality and understanding.

In our constitution we are all equal, we must learn to understand our different beliefs and ideas.

May truth and justice be our guides,

The TRC helped SA get over its injustices, now we can press forward with a goal of maintaining justice.

and our forefathers our advisors.

Not only must we learn from our ancestors/ parents but also from their mistakes and also our mistakes. Learn from your past.

[ryanrich]

Just another thing to make SA more of a laughing stock...

[Tribble]

Just another thing to make SA more of a laughing stock...

I tend to agree - in utopia it might be plausible - but not here

[Judas]

"injustices of OUR past" -- Wait, what did I do wrong? Where did I play any part in apartheid?

Recognising injustice doesn't necessarily imply that you're taking responsibility the said injustice, especially when you consider that all races are going to recite this line. If this was only going to be recited by whites, then I would be worried .

Having an oath/pledge of allegiance/agreement to stand by your country and support humane values, morals and ethical codes is most definitely a worhtwhile activity, I don't think many people would honestly disagree with that.

I disagree . I just don't see a pledge making any tangible difference to anyone's morals, no matter how many times they're forced to repeat it. And we do have a code of morals and ethics: it's called The Constitution.

[Slasher]

defeated apartheid system of a corrupt and suppressive government.

Isn't our current government both of these things?

Yes I suppose so, but to a much lesser extent. Well...

My point was, the population currently has more freedoms as a whole than it did then. That's similar to sayingbeing slapped is better than being kicked in the nuts, neither of which is pleasant. However, things in this country have progressed somewhat. We do have a relatively good Human Rights support base, religious freedom in this country is far better than in many other countries and our drug use is not (yet) as high as a lot of the European countries (though this will change soon as Southern Africa is now a major drug trade route).

So yes, it is both generally corrupt, and suppressive in certain aspects, though you can't deny it is leaps and bounds better than it ever was before.

And even in this I would not put money on a bet...

Are you aware that there are now BLACK people sitting in squatter camps saying that they had a better life in the Apartheid era? The oppression and lack of freedom did not work well for them, but as they say "At least I had a job"...

White and Black alike are getting killed, raped, tortured, left in the dark and swindled out of money. Freedom has increased, whilst everything else has decreased. The freedom you have however now only means you can get shot at home, work of in another province as you choose...

[Slasher]

"injustices of OUR past" -- Wait, what did I do wrong? Where did I play any part in apartheid?

Recognising injustice doesn't necessarily imply that you're taking responsibility the said injustice, especially when you consider that all races are going to recite this line. If this was only going to be recited by whites, then I would be worried .

Admitted, it may have been interpreted wrongly, but even so, for how long will SA hang on to what happened now 14 years ago? After 25 years? 50 years?

As much as the Germans remember their history, you don't see them repeating it every day and shouting to the world that they need special care...

I don't know... This just does not feel right at all...

[Interfan]

The whole things is BS imho. I would never ever pledge allegiance to any piece of land/country. The only allegiance I have is towards myself and my family.

And what are they going to do about the kids who refuse to pledge allegiance are they going to throw them out of the school??

[KillerByte]

yeah, I agree Slasher. Freedom doesn't keep you warm at night, it doesn't fill your belly and it doesn't keep your wife/ daughter's virtue safe.

[D3PART3D]

I disagree . I just don't see a pledge making any tangible difference to anyone's morals, no matter how many times they're forced to repeat it. And we do have a code of morals and ethics: it's called The Constitution.

I disagree When you blow the whistle, the dog will salivate! The subconscious mind cannot tell the difference between the imaginary and the real - it will learn new thought patterns if the oath is said with fervor.

[Judas]

defeated apartheid system of a corrupt and suppressive government.

Isn't our current government both of these things?

Yes I suppose so, but to a much lesser extent. Well...

My point was, the population currently has more freedoms as a whole than it did then. That's similar to sayingbeing slapped is better than being kicked in the nuts, neither of which is pleasant. However, things in this country have progressed somewhat. We do have a relatively good Human Rights support base, religious freedom in this country is far better than in many other countries and our drug use is not (yet) as high as a lot of the European countries (though this will change soon as Southern Africa is now a major drug trade route).

So yes, it is both generally corrupt, and suppressive in certain aspects, though you can't deny it is leaps and bounds better than it ever was before.

And even in this I would not put money on a bet...

Are you aware that there are now BLACK people sitting in squatter camps saying that they had a better life in the Apartheid era? The oppression and lack of freedom did not work well for them, but as they say "At least I had a job"...

White and Black alike are getting killed, raped, tortured, left in the dark and swindled out of money. Freedom has increased, whilst everything else has decreased. The freedom you have however now only means you can get shot at home, work of in another province as you choose...

I agree that for the average lower-class South African, quality of life has decreased since 1994. However, that is an entirely seperate issue from that of freedom or human rights. To suggest that quality of life has dropped as a result of the increase in freedom would be to make a grave logical error: just because two things happen at the same time, it doesn't mean that they're in any way related. Correlation does not imply causation.

So while unemployment and other social issues may have worsened post-'94, it's undeniable that freedom and respect for human rights has improved -- so it's not all bad, and I'd still say that we're better off as a country than we were 20 years ago.

[UrBaN]

Quick question: what's with tha black/whit references? The topic is: "Your conetentious issue for today: Oath of Allegiance"

Whilst I fully realise the impications of this, this is an allegiance to a country, not a racial discussion.

Not, "Your contentious issue for today: Black people's Oath of Allegiance"

Maybe a little off topic, but we're discussing an Oath of Allegiance to the COUNTRY, not our races.

Yes there are blacks sitting jobless, just as there were jobless whites in the apartheid era. That point is irrelevant.

Now I know i'll get flamed for 'siding with government', but the rape/killing/torture etc - do you believe this is done by 'government'? Or do you think just maybe it's done by the very same people who 'abide by the constitution'? Yes, we have a moral code in the form of a constitution, though I wonder who here has read it?

Something like http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html is a fully non-descriminatory, all encompassing document which any group, race, government or religion can align itself with.

That would make fora better moral code than the one suggested by our government, and, if enforced, would certainly uplift society.

[jee]

I can never understand why i must honour a flag - yes its the symbol... but it means sweet blue all to me... its just a thing... like a rugby ball signed by the Springboxs..

and our forefathers our advisors."

no... there are too many forefathers that i do not want to have anything to do with... *shakes head so hard that the 90% i use to keep my head from filling up with air rattles*

Slasher, read cnn and Time's articles on the Auzzie government saying sorry for atrocities of the past( things that happened 60 years ago.

From 1910 until the 1970s, around 100,000 mostly mixed-blood Aboriginal children were taken from their parents under state and federal laws based on a premise that Aborigines were a doomed race and saving the children was a humane alternative.

by the way Killerbye - read the rules - your sig is too long.

[Judas]

I disagree . I just don't see a pledge making any tangible difference to anyone's morals, no matter how many times they're forced to repeat it. And we do have a code of morals and ethics: it's called The Constitution.

I disagree When you blow the whistle, the dog will salivate! The subconscious mind cannot tell the difference between the imaginary and the real - it will learn new thought patterns if the oath is said with fervor.

Ah, but if we're using indoctrination to inculcate morals that raises a moral issue in itself: isn't indoctrination immoral? Even we're using indoctrination to teach morals?

[D3PART3D]

Ah, but if we're using indoctrination to inculcate morals that raises a moral issue in itself: isn't indoctrination immoral? Even we're using indoctrination to teach morals?

You're right. Indoctrination FTL.

[Judas]

Ah, but if we're using indoctrination to inculcate morals that raises a moral issue in itself: isn't indoctrination immoral? Even we're using indoctrination to teach morals?

You're right. Indoctrination FTL.

Wait, did you just agree with me? Who are you and what have you done with D3PART3D!?

[rustypup]

Would you say a country is better off without moral/ethical values?

well.. no.

first off, the concept "country" has various levels of meaning and context for everyone. whatever the word/idea evinces within you is probably not shared by those around you. the word 'country' is generally espoused by those who seek to play on some misunderstood concept of patriotism.. "country" in most cases means "family, friends/acquaintances, neighborhood, that place i visit on holiday" and even "that bloke i buy my fags from"...

secondly, what in the name of the seven hells of oprah does a government's ham-fisted approach to brainwashing have to do with morals, ethics or even the precession of the earth? again, your sense of moral right and wrong is not based on some stab at poetic programming... your parents, friends and compatriots stand a far better chance of affecting these than some sad attempt at social engineering...

If we consider morals to be the agreed upon rules and behavioural guidelines by which a family/group/company/nation abide by,

again, a "nation" cannot have morals... people can have morals, exercise ethics and practice compassion, caring and all those wonderful cuddly things... "nation" and "country" are memes. feel free to shake a "nation" by the hand and ask it how it's day has been sometime.

if the people are in disagreement to the extent that they revolt (history has numerous instances of this) then these couldn't be considered morals, but dictatorial law.

no. your real problem is when the majority buy into the concept of nationalist values... then you end up with marginalisation, abuse of constitutional authority, rampant corruption, genocide, etc, etc... all those not-so-cuddly aspects of this type of value system. again, no government can define or, even worse, dictate personal morality...

how then can you disagree that morals are an important and necessary factor of societal existence?

i said no such thing... i said that morals don't arrive as a neat package to be rammed into the head of every child simply because the government feels they would like to have a more compliant populace...

just to clarify, i'm not arguing for an immoral/amoral society here.. i'm challenging the assertion that this sort of programme can have a positive influence on a developing mind.

again, an individual's moral value system is primarily derived from those with whom they are in immediate contact with.

[D3PART3D]

Wait, did you just agree with me? Who are you and what have you done with D3PART3D!?

LOL!

[jee]

Who are you and what have you done with D3PART3D!?

he is trying to behave

[Judas]

Who are you and what have you done with D3PART3D!?

he is trying to behave

I think I liked the old D3PART3D better, it really kills the debate when your opponent agrees with you .

[Slasher]

Also, how can one define a standard set of morals/values that everyone must abide by except for the logical ones such as murder/rape/steal?

My parents, friends, events in MY life and MY beliefs dictates which values I will hold onto. For someone, unmarried couples sleeping together or staying together might be perfectly fine, for me it is wrong. For me, twisting statistics and facts to change the context in which people view it is wrong, for some it is not an issue, as the truth is still in there...

In no way can a political party tell someone which values they are allowed to have and which not. They can uphold the LAW, but not change my values. They can try, but good luck...