F1 2005!!!

WoolyBadBaba · Post by **WoolyBadBaba** » 20 Jun 2005, 16:55

Well.....I was so upset that I had to study for exams and miss my fav race. Now it seems I didn't miss much. I was so looking forward to this race, with the track that requires strategy, and Ferrari's then-current standings in the championship. *sigh*

The way I see it, Michelin made the mistake by bringing unsuitable tires to the race. As for the decision of Ferrari's, any team would have done the same thing in that position. You're obviously going to choose the option that benefits your team most. You really can't blame any of the teams for anything that happened on the race day.

I do feel though, that the spectators should have been given a refund. So this brings Ferrari up to a tie for 2nd place. Would they have made it if it weren't for this race?...Dunno. Would they have been able to recover during the rest of the Championship?...Hmmm....

dammod · Post by **dammod** » 20 Jun 2005, 19:02

WoolyBadBaba wrote: Would they have made it if it weren't for this race?...Dunno. Would they have been able to recover during the rest of the Championship?...Hmmm....

Its not even worth asking that, cause this race is part of the championship which means that the last race was as valid as any. If Ferrari had to win the championship by 1 point over say....Mclaren...and people start saying "oh well if it wasnt for that race at Indy"...SO WHAT! It was a race and Ferrari cameout tops. Pure and simple

Dr_Jung · Post by **Dr_Jung** » 20 Jun 2005, 20:04

I have booked rooms for the lot of them, plus their fans, in my men...........hotel!

Screeper · Post by **Screeper** » 20 Jun 2005, 20:22

Good discussion here lads

I felt really grim as i watched the cars peel off and enter the pits.
Michelin need to have their bottoms kicked. I honestly don't believe there is any excuse for a multi-billion dollar company to be caught out by a banked turn on one of the most famous race tracks in the world.
The Bridgestone runners i believe, did the right thing, it is not up to them (altho some will argue (and have) that Ferrari did have the ball in their court for a while) to decide the fate of this monumental mess up.

If however a chicane had been implemented and the Michi cars agreed that they would not recieve points (but the Bridgestones runners could) i think the race would have been a joke in any case.
Sure, maybe Kimi/Alonso/Button etc. could have stopped Ferrari scoring max points but i think the race would still have left a bitter taste in everyones mouth. Although maybe not as bitter as it did by them all pulling out.

Just to add to the A1 comments that have popped up. I can't see F1 dying out. It is the greatest motorsport championship in the world, nothing comes close.
There is to much love of F1 for it to simply fade away. People will make a plan. Lets hope it appears sooner rather than later.

Ridiculous race meetings aside, it certainly has livened up the championship

link to an informative bit of news

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a ... 3/50620003

Hawk21 · Post by **Hawk21** » 20 Jun 2005, 22:20

what some people seem to be glossing over is one very simple fact regarding the chicane issue,

it doesnt matter if all the teams signed the paper or not.

its not just the teams that have to agree, its the fia as well, they quite clearly said "no"

why on earth should they go changing the track just because a company is incapable of doing its job? especially when their competitor managed just fine, now if it was both bridgestone and michellin then fine, but just the one? no definately not, they made the mistake and they have to pay for it, i understand its unfair to the teams but thats unavoidable.

this was in no way ferrari's fault, they left it up to the rulemakers which was the right thing to do and its a bit sad to think that in this situation people will be laying blame where its not warranted.

----------------

right well as Screeper said: Good discussion going on

as for A1 im looking forward to it, the Grand Prix Masters series is also one to look out for, theyl be running a race (i think) at Kyalami after the F1x2 race, which was pretty interesting to watch last year.

WoolyBadBaba · Post by **WoolyBadBaba** » 20 Jun 2005, 22:39

Ha, i've decided to start my own B1 in my own front-yard. We're all going to race cardboard boxes (to cut down on costs of course) down my bank. My dog has set up plenty "obstacles" despite threats with the pooper-scooper, so the track will take heavy toll on the corners of the boxes, as drivers will be racing for their lives. Now, if Nampak decides to bring the wrong box, that is their OWN STORY! Mondi recycling will just continue racing. Good Luck, may the force be with ya.

Hawk21 · Post by **Hawk21** » 20 Jun 2005, 23:03

get some tv coverage and your set

dammod · Post by **dammod** » 20 Jun 2005, 23:10

Screeper and Hawk21: WELL SAID!!! I second both those posts!!!!

elbow · Post by **elbow** » 21 Jun 2005, 01:26

WoolyBadBaba wrote:Ha, i've decided to start my own B1 in my own front-yard. We're all going to race cardboard boxes (to cut down on costs of course) down my bank. My dog has set up plenty "obstacles" despite threats with the pooper-scooper, so the track will take heavy toll on the corners of the boxes, as drivers will be racing for their lives. Now, if Nampak decides to bring the wrong box, that is their OWN STORY! Mondi recycling will just continue racing. Good Luck, may the force be with ya.

How much will the tickets be and where can i get them from? LOL

Tolklein · Post by **Tolklein** » 21 Jun 2005, 02:45

If it rains and everyone’s boxes, err cars get soggy and can’t race will I get my money back?

elbow · Post by **elbow** » 21 Jun 2005, 04:09

Tolklein wrote:If it rains and everyone’s boxes, err cars get soggy and can’t race will I get my money back?

Nah, they will just say they didnt bring the right kind of box!

Post by **Anakha56** » 21 Jun 2005, 07:02

did any1 read the article that got posted? the fia want to bring the Michi team's into a hearing for not running! that's absurd if Michi decided to take back there tire's there is nothing those team's could have done, so now now all the Michi team's are victim's in a situation they had no control over...the fia need's to take a serious hard look at themselve's because this is going to push the team's farther away from them...

DEeRaY · Post by **DEeRaY** » 21 Jun 2005, 07:32

Oops, stupid tuesday morns

Doublepost:)

DEeRaY · Post by **DEeRaY** » 21 Jun 2005, 07:33

dammod wrote: It was a race and Ferrari cameout tops. Pure and simple

Who were they racing..... NO ONE!!!!!!!!
This wasnt a race it was a joke.....

dammod · Post by **dammod** » 21 Jun 2005, 08:42

DEeRaY wrote:
dammod wrote: It was a race and Ferrari cameout tops. Pure and simple
Who were they racing..... NO ONE!!!!!!!!
This wasnt a race it was a joke.....

(by ferrari, I mean the whole team...including the tire manufacturers)
In the end...Ferrari won, your team lost. PERIOD.

...what

...its true

DEeRaY · Post by **DEeRaY** » 21 Jun 2005, 08:47

lol, ok ok ok i get your point....
damn ferraris

Oh well still very excited about the next race,
Anyone wanna bet me michelin will have safe tyre for the next race =p

jbayman · Post by **jbayman** » 21 Jun 2005, 09:11

Anakha56 wrote:did any1 read the article that got posted? the fia want to bring the Michi team's into a hearing for not running! that's absurd if Michi decided to take back there tire's there is nothing those team's could have done, so now now all the Michi team's are victim's in a situation they had no control over...the fia need's to take a serious hard look at themselve's because this is going to push the team's farther away from them...

Have you also read this article posted by the FIA on Monday?

"At Indianapolis we were told by Michelin that their tyres would be unsafe unless their cars were slowed in the main corner. We understood and among other suggestions offered to help them by monitoring speeds and penalising any excess. However, the Michelin teams refused to agree unless the Bridgestone runners were slowed by the same amount. They suggested a chicane.

The Michelin teams seemed unable to understand that this would have been grossly unfair as well as contrary to the rules."

From supersport.co.za

It's like Manchester United playing Arsenal while the Manchester goalkeeper has a broken arm and Manchester refusing to play unless the arm of the Arsenal goalkeeper is broken as well.

Michelin was largely at fault, but the teams could've still raced, only reducing their speed in turn 13.

So take them to the hearing.

If the roles were reversed, do you think the Michelin teams would have agreed to a chicane? I don't.

I agree that it's going to cause an even bigger rift than there allready is, but hopefully they will now implicate thee rule of only one tyre manufaturer in F1, much quicker.

Anyway, what's done is done.

Now we can only wait and see what happens........

dammod · Post by **dammod** » 21 Jun 2005, 09:52

DEeRaY wrote:lol, ok ok ok i get your point....
damn ferraris

LOL!

DEeRaY wrote:Oh well still very excited about the next race,
Anyone wanna bet me michelin will have safe tyre for the next race =p

Yeah, they are gonna bring in new tyres. Ones that have not been tested much and the teams will have to set their cars up with, not knowing much about them. And they are still gonna need to get use to them.

nice read there bayman

Daz · Post by **Daz** » 21 Jun 2005, 10:18

I think this ends the debate............

Formula One is a sporting contest. It must operate to clear rules. These cannot be negotiated each time a competitor brings the wrong equipment to a race.

At Indianapolis we were told by Michelin that their tyres would be unsafe unless their cars were slowed in the main corner. We understood and among other suggestions offered to help them by monitoring speeds and penalising any excess. However, the Michelin teams refused to agree unless the Bridgestone runners were slowed by the same amount. They suggested a chicane.

The Michelin teams seemed unable to understand that this would have been grossly unfair as well as contrary to the rules. The Bridgestone teams had suitable tyres. They did not need to slow down. The Michelin teams’ lack of speed through turn 13 would have been a direct result of inferior equipment, as often happens in Formula One. It must also be remembered that the FIA wrote to all of the teams and both tyre manufacturers on June 1, 2005, to emphasise that “tyres should be built to be reliable under all circumstances” (see correspondence attached).

A chicane would have forced all cars, including those with tyres optimised for high-speed, to run on a circuit whose characteristics had changed fundamentally – from ultra-high speed (because of turn 13) to very slow and twisting. It would also have involved changing the circuit without following any of the modern safety procedures, possibly with implications for the cars and their brakes. It is not difficult to imagine the reaction of an American court had there been an accident (whatever its cause) with the FIA having to admit it had failed to follow its own rules and safety procedures.

The reason for this debacle is clear. Each team is allowed to bring two types of tyre: one an on-the-limit potential race winner, the other a back-up which, although slower, is absolutely reliable. Apparently, none of the Michelin teams brought a back-up to Indianapolis. They subsequently announced they were flying in new tyres from France but then claimed that these too were unsafe.

What about the American fans? What about Formula One fans world-wide? Rather than boycott the race the Michelin teams should have agreed to run at reduced speed in turn 13. The rules would have been kept, they would have earned Championship points and the fans would have had a race. As it is, by refusing to run unless the FIA broke the rules and handicapped the Bridgestone runners, they have damaged themselves and the sport.

It should also be made clear that Formula One Management and Indianapolis Motor Speedway, as commercial entities, can have no role in the enforcement of the rules.

I find it very telling that the Michelin runners "refused to agree" unless the bridgestone runners were slowed by the same amount !

http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Re ... 05-01.html

dammod · Post by **dammod** » 21 Jun 2005, 10:37

HAHA!!! THERE YOU GO!!!! Nice one Daz!!!!

Post by **Kronos** » 21 Jun 2005, 11:28

What a discussion we have going here. 8O

I think that Michelin made the best choice they could by withdrawing their tyres from the rice. Let me explain.

The FIA changing the track was never gonna happen. Rules are rules, and they already gave a little leeway by allowing Michelin to fly in new tyres.
What Michelin wanted first though was to change the track to include a new chicane to slow everyone down on turn 13, and all our teams will forego their points for this race. The FIA said no-go, but just let your teams drive through the turn slower. Then Michelin said, "but then let all the teams drive slower through turn 13 and let our teams forego their points". Again the FIA said no.
That's a race, but the Michelin Runners who could still race in such a case, would get NO POINTS. This means they don't interfere at all with what happened in any case.

Now, let's look at the situation:

Web Definition of "race": A contest of speed

How much of a contest would it be if most of the drivers had to slow down for a while?

Imagine the Commentary:
Lap 1: Jarno Trulli Leads Kimmi Raikonen, closely followed by Button, Fisichella and Michael Schoemacher. Oh, but what's this? Oh Yes, the front 4 runners have to slow down for turn 13 as to not kill themselves in the process.
So, Michael Schumacher takes the lead. the First time in F1 Grand Prix history that a driver passes 4 other cars in 1 move...
Lap 2: Michael now leads by 1 second but the Michelin runners are back up to speed and in the race...
...Here comes turn 13 again. Most of the drivers have to slow down again. Rubins Now Passes some of the drivers and is now in second place behind Michael who leads by 5 seconds after lap 2.
etc.
etc.
etc.
etc.
Lap 73: Michael wins the US Grand Prix followed by Rubins Barrichello a second behind. Monteiro is just 1 LAP behind. Karthikeyan follows, then comes Albers and Friesacher, another lap behind, but don't worry, there are still 2 places left in the points for two of the Michelin Runners who only have 15 Laps left to go after The Race has been won!!!

Ridiculous

Maybe it's a little exaggerated, but the point remains: How could you deem that a RACE?
And what if, even at slower speed some Michelin Tyres failed, and caused someone to crash into a wall at 250km/h? That could still kill a driver. Or if they crashed right in front of Michael and took him out of the race too? What would everyone say then? "Maybe Michelin should not have let the Teams drive with their Tyres at all?"

Now the FIA want to Penalize the 7 Michelin Running Teams for taking advice to keep their Drivers safe???

The fact is: the problem lies with Michelin. They had an inferior tyre, couldn't keep up with the speed and keep the drivers safe, and then told the teams not too race, because the tyres aren't safe. Why don't the FIA penalize them? How about a hefty fine, or even throw them out of F1 and let Bridgestone take over all the tyres.

All i'm saying is why punish the Teams because one of the available suppliers had inferior equipment.

What would happen if the Break Pad supplier provided a batch of inferior brakes, incapable of stopping the car quickly enough from 350km/h to 90km/h, and most of the cars spin out or crash because of it. Will the FIA then penalize the teams for all spinning out and messing up the race or the Break Pad supplier for supplying faulty Break Pads?

RVFmal · Post by **RVFmal** » 21 Jun 2005, 11:44

Kronos, you have a valid point, but let's look at reality. The speed differential through turns 12 and 13 would not have been that much different.

Everybody has made it sound like they would have to crawl through the corner to make it through safely. By tapping off through the 2 turns in question would have in all probability meant thet they would have lost approximately 5/10's of a second to a second. This in turn means that they would have effectively only lost between 36s to 72s over the race distance which, if worked out correctly, would have meant that they would have finished at worst case scenarion 1 or 2 laps behind.

Now take into account fule strategy. By tapping off they would have used less fuel meaning longer runs between pitstops or carrying less fuel over the race distance which means lighter car which in turn means better performance and quicker speeds down the straight and through the infield.

Theoretically they could have still managed to finish the race on the same lap as the Ferrari's.

Michelin were never going to compromise as they would have had to answer if a driver had been injured or killed in the race. They could have gone the route of a disclaimer, but they chose to pull the tyres. Wrong thing to do? Definitely not.

They made a mistake and they tried to make the 3 other teams pay for it by stating that they would only run with a chicane (of which no-one can prove the safety of).

Either way, what happened happened and it was bad for the sport. I think the Michelin runners should be brought before a tribunal to ascertain why a compromise was never reached. The matter should be cleared up as a matter of urgency.

As for Michelin not having the same amount of track time as Bridgestone at Indianapolis, they have all raced at Indy before (for the last 5 years). While Ferrari had a slight advantage having runners in Indy Car and CART, Michelin cannot use the excuse that they had no idea of the dangers. Look at what happened to Ralf last year. You would have thought that this year they would have been the team to err on the side of caution.

Knuckles · Post by **Knuckles** » 21 Jun 2005, 14:49

DEeRaY wrote:
dammod wrote: It was a race and Ferrari cameout tops. Pure and simple
Who were they racing..... NO ONE!!!!!!!!
This wasnt a race it was a joke.....

Ferrari were lucky and benefitted from some easy pickings. I would have preferred to see them earn their places. And thats coming from a HUGE Ferrari fan! 8O

One thing this mess has done is make the championship a whole lot closer, this race just might be Ferrari's saving grace.

Just my 2c worth...

Slagter · Post by **Slagter** » 21 Jun 2005, 15:08

DEeRaY wrote:
dammod wrote: It was a race and Ferrari cameout tops. Pure and simple
Who were they racing..... NO ONE!!!!!!!!
This wasnt a race it was a joke.....

I couldn't agree more... If you go to this link www.teamlc.co.nr and go to the section called: A GUY THING you will see a letter to and from Sasha Martenengo and more interresting news about this last race... Seriously.

DEeRaY · Post by **DEeRaY** » 21 Jun 2005, 15:16

everytime i see this i wanna cry

Starting grid for the 2005 Indianapolis Grand Prix for those who dont know

Now tell me they coulndt have made a plan.... Just look at that its... its... its just wrong