the (mainly) non-Christians thread.

[jee]

Jamin! you disappoint me... you should read further... and go back to the home page and read the part that proves God exists.

[JollyJamma]

There's a pie recipe at the end?

Edit: additional.

Most scientific studies and experiments can be demonstrated simply and reliably to show that eg Oxygen exists.
The original experiment to show that air was not just one type of element and made up of a specific combination of elements, one of which allows organisms to live, was performed at Bowood in Wiltshire just down the road from my grans. This showed that the world was more complicated than just 'air'. So much further down the line and elements are identified in an incomplete periodic chart, named and with specific properties. This then led scientists to logically believe that other elements existed and leave a nice gap for them to fill up when they could prove these existed. Technology and know how then allowed them to fill in the rest and even add to the periodic chart with man made elements.

This logical theory paid off and now we have something that kids use all over the world and is a proven scientific fact with multiple experiments coming to the same concept and results.
This way of thinking is still applied to experiments and issues today.

The problem with religion is that there is no test to prove that their god exists, only faith and faith is all in the head. As with placebo affects and desires, greed, lies, hope, intelligence, jealousy, love, hate, etc

If one religion could prove that their god did exist and another didn't, it would see the end of all other religions and religious wars would come to a halt as the true god would be proven. Alas this is not true.

[senile]

show me an atheist who sits and think about Christianity for any significant period of time.

I can do that. But first you need to tell me how long it takes you think about searching for jokes about [Christians, Muslims, Terrorism*] and post it here, etc. Tally it up and that would be my answer. Another 2 seconds for the sarcastic joke that just popped into your head.

The problem with religion is that there is no test to prove that their god exists, only faith and faith is all in the head.

Faith is in the heart, not in the head.



*Terrorism is a persuader to assist a faith. Fly a jumbo jet filled with atheists towards a towering building, and suddenly all of them start praying. /joke drumroll/

[JollyJamma]

Faith is in the heart, not in the head.

Not sure what that means exactly but I'm sure it has something to do with feelings.

[senile]

Faith is in the heart, not in the head.

Not sure what that means exactly but I'm sure it has something to do with feelings.

I don't know either. Ask Jamin. /joke drumroll/

[Molean]

I realized this year that I am agnostic...I believe in a higher power but don't like to label...

[KALSTER]

higher power

Will more advanced aliens suffice to satisfy this criteria? Cause then I do as well.

[Molean]

Haha, well higher power as in one all mighty God...thats it...just one...controls all...even the aliens...

[jee]

Molean - out of curiosity, how do you see this god? Male/female- omnipotent? omnipresent? one individual or a collective consciences?

[hamin_aus]

I realized this year that I am agnostic...I believe in a higher power but don't like to label...

You can't believe in anything if you are agnostic.
You take everything as untrue until proven otherwise.

one all mighty God...thats it...just one...controls all...

Making your own beliefs up as you go along... I approve, but still not agnostic.
Membership request denied

[Synthesis]

I realized this year that I am agnostic...I believe in a higher power but don't like to label...

You're a Closet-Christian.

[Sojourn]

I was brought up old-school reformed church. (That is not NG, although close).
I don't now what to believe.
I play this "lets-go-to-church" game with my wife to placate her and the family.
I try to dodge going to church as much as I can.
Not sure how I am going to handle the situation with my 8 months old girl.
I don't want her to be brainwashed, but on the other hand I'd like to keep her informed to make her own choices - once she's old enough.

[Synthesis]

Pretty easy Sojourn, to me at least.

I can see why you would call going to church being brainwashed, but it's not going to make a difference to her growing up in a household of high Christian faith and going to schools where Christianity is the majority. So to keep peace, yes she should go to church. With or without church, she'll be "brainwashed" basically.

Then Christianity aside, take any religion. The basis of it teaches good morals. "Be good and do good unto others" I would imagine you choosing to keep religion away from your daughter, would hinder these teachings and cause problems later in life.

[Molean]

Haha, seems I have caused a stir in the hornets nest so to speak...

@ Synthesis - Closet Christian I am not. Tried doing it, but I question almost everything about it. I keep wanting proof of everything that has been written in the Bible, but all I keep hearing is that it's in the Bible.

@ Jamin - Sorry I though being Agnostic meant to not deny the existence of a God, where as being an Athiest you believe in nothing...the END.

@ Jee - I believe that 'God' so to speak is an equal, not male nor female. Yea maybe around us the whole time. As for power, I would think unlimited, yes...It feels weird to think of 'God' as a person or someone, I prefer the thought of just being 'there'...

Sorry Religion isn't my strongest point(as I am sure you can see), but I do like to question it and have a good friendly argument about it from time to time...hope to not rub anyone the wrong way...

[KALSTER]

I would imagine you choosing to keep religion away from your daughter, would hinder these teachings and cause problems later in life.

How do you figure?

[Synthesis]

My opinion Kalster so I'm not looking for a debate. Religion to me is just a good basis of teaching right from wrong and that you must be good. Without this, there's going to be a bit more chaos.

Sure, you get taught this at home but at a point what's the kid going to think if there's a temptation to be bad. The worst that'll happen is he'll get a hiding or grounded. If he has more to fear such as he'll go to hell there may be less chance for him to do something bad.
Excuse the extreme example but ja, that's more like what I meant.

[JollyJamma]

I was brought up old-school reformed church. (That is not NG, although close).
I don't now what to believe.
I play this "lets-go-to-church" game with my wife to placate her and the family.
I try to dodge going to church as much as I can.
Not sure how I am going to handle the situation with my 8 months old girl.
I don't want her to be brainwashed, but on the other hand I'd like to keep her informed to make her own choices - once she's old enough.

If you don't want your daughter to ignore one side of the story then ask her how she feels about religion and what she thinks about it whilst giving your side of the story and why you think that way.

[Synthesis]

Yes, and then tell us what your 8 month old daughter says. While you're at it, send her an email to her Blackberry with this threads link so she understands how you feel.

[JollyJamma]

Yes, and then tell us what your 8 month old daughter says. While you're at it, send her an email to her Blackberry with this threads link so she understands how you feel.

OMG fail on my behalf {In my defense I had no idea how old she was, in hind sight that was an assumption based on his statement}

Edit: To reduce disk space I agree with the below statement. Scaring children is less useful than teaching them and expecting them to chose to be good. There are many ways to teach someone and if they point out that if religion is wrong then there is no hell to begin with then you are screwed.

[KALSTER]

If he has more to fear such as he'll go to hell there may be less chance for him to do something bad.
Excuse the extreme example but ja, that's more like what I meant.

I get what you are saying, honestly, but when you think about this a bit, don't you think it is extremely cruel to let your child believe something as horrible as that, just because of a vague thought that he might turn "bad"? Isn't it better to teach your child to be good for the sake of others and society, rather than to avoid a punishment that is horrible to such an extreme that our tiny minds can't even fathom it properly?

[Synthesis]

You're right Kalster, Going to hell shouldn't be an excuse to be good. Look at it more like a practice. 15 years from now they can decide which religious bath to take but they'll have the ideals of a good society. We're not talking about a redneck church where you'll burn in hell if you touch a woman kind of thing.

[KALSTER]

I am sorry, but I am not going to threaten my children with the worst thing I can imagine, when I can teach them the right reasons to care for others from the start instead. The first option is insane and extremely cruel to me now that I know better.

[hamin_aus]

Is it still okay to tell your kids the boogeyman will eat them if they are bad?

[Molean]

Is it still okay to tell your kids the boogeyman will eat them if they are bad?

Only if they believe in him...

[jee]

I think that children should not be threatened by anything. Not with police or with the boogie man, not with going to hell, not with severe punishment if they do something wrong. Rather they should be taught to be honest and if they do wrong, must accept the punishment.

I also believe that you cannot make any informed decision if you have not seen all the sides. I am not going to repeat my story with Katryn, but I think that in my own stupid way the choices on a belief system and teaching of morals (and she did experience some of the worst possible things that a young child could) were more successful than not. I seriously dislike people pretending to like/doing something, particularly like going to church or "accepting" an opposing view if they dislike doing it. hmmm Are we in the offend thread?