Your Contentious Issue for today:Oath of Allegiance

jee · Post by **jee** » 13 Feb 2008, 13:19

Slasher, the teacher is not to allow personal opinions to cloud their professional teaching. Its similar in my profession - because we deal with a community that include the whole constitutional freedom, at all times we need to keep the personal from the professional.

What if she was an evolutionist and portrayed that kind of image re creationism?

What is she was Wiccan, and included a prayer to the Goddess? -

Slasher · Post by **Slasher** » 13 Feb 2008, 13:30

Jee, she never said a prayer for the people that believe the theory, nor did she call it 'nonsense' or discredit it in any sense.

She never said "I am a Christian and this is wrong" or "Buddhism is the truth, I dont believe this"...

She did not force her view on them. We all have a RIGHT TO RELIGION in this country. Just as I am entitled to my religion and practicing it, so you are entitled to your religion and practicing it. She never tried to stop them from practicing any religion. What she did is 150% fine. If she REFUSED to teach this THEN you could complain...

She lifted an opinion to the children, most likely to spark a bit of a debate in class. I know of quite a few educators that prefer to allow the children a debate in class as a way to share opinions and gather interest and involvement from students..

Do you want to tell me you can be 100% objective in everything you do? Never let any personal opinion shadow your professional teachings?

I am sorry, but you HAVE to be kidding me.

Hex_Rated · Post by **Hex_Rated** » 13 Feb 2008, 13:33

Jee, she never said a prayer for the people that believe the theory, nor did she call it 'nonsense' or discredit it in any sense.

Being a teacher and telling your students you don't believe in evolution is discrediting it. What if you told kids you don't believe the world is round but you have to teach it to them anyway? Teachers that do that should be fired.

DeanMF · Post by **DeanMF** » 13 Feb 2008, 13:35

Hex_Rated wrote:
Jee, she never said a prayer for the people that believe the theory, nor did she call it 'nonsense' or discredit it in any sense.
Being a teacher and telling your students you don't believe in evolution is discrediting it. What if you told kids you don't believe the world is round but you have to teach it to them anyway? Teachers that do that should be fired.

Agreed.

Website · Post by **hamin_aus** » 13 Feb 2008, 13:36

My opinion: You are paid to teach a syllabus, not inject your opinion into it.

If a child had out of the blue asked her what she though and she gave an opinion, then fine. But this was not the case.

rustypup · Post by **rustypup** » 13 Feb 2008, 13:43

Hex_Rated wrote:Teachers that do that should be fired.

or, at least, moderately toasted...

i'd far rather they fire the teachers who are responsible for failing to teach than those who aren't averse to foisting their opinion on their students. while it is relatively easy to correct a misconception, it is almost impossible to replace lost education....

but this is OT...

<fines himself 2 points>

thinking this through, i am more upset over the fact that the gits have, yet again, managed to push back the boundaries of stupidity than concern over any lasting damage.

most of my contemporaries were exposed to school prayer, and all that managed was to keep them awake during assembly...

jee · Post by **jee** » 13 Feb 2008, 13:58

Slasher wrote: I am sorry, but you HAVE to be kidding me.

Why is that so difficult to believe? I have always, and will always behave in a professional manner, my ethics and morals as well as that of my profession see to that. Very few people know what religion, political views or gender/race beliefs i have because i NEVER allow those to influence my work.

LordRage · Post by **LordRage** » 13 Feb 2008, 14:29

I see I have entered this discussion after everyone has already taken it way off topic. However I would like to say that Mbeki is a hypocrite trying to get people to say this:

"We sincerely declare that we shall uphold the rights and values of our Constitution and promise to act in accordance with the duties and responsibilities that flow from these rights."

The reason I say this is that he was the one who was trying to get a 3rd term as president, which would have required a constitutional amendment, and now he has the audacity to turn around and tell children they should "uphold the values of our constitution"? Why take advice from him? He obviously only has respect for the constitution until it affects him personally...

Website · Post by **hamin_aus** » 13 Feb 2008, 14:49

LordRage wrote:He obviously only has respect for the constitution until it affects him personally...

Show me a member of parliament that that statement is not true for!

I think Mbeki is once again trying to leave his mark on history - and once again he is failing.

Remember all his bluster about an African renaissance during his first term

His quiet diplomacy let Southern Africa slip into the gaping maw of total anarchy. And while he was off being a big shot diplomat, his country stumbled into an an HIV pandemic, an energy crisis and so many other wonderful things.
I think it is actually safe to say that Africa is further from a renaissance now than it was before Mbeki took office!

Mbeki will forever be remembered as the anticlimax that followed Mandela.
The sooner we are rid of him, the sooner we can brace ourselves for (hopefully only) 4 years of Zuma.
Then maybe we can get this place back on track. Assuming there is anything left by then.

Tribble · Post by **Tribble** » 13 Feb 2008, 14:52

That is rather two faced indeed. Duplicity should not be allowed.

@ Slasher - If I said to you that DX10 was an entertaining / interesting idea but that I believed that it would never take off - and that you don't have to believe in it either. How can you justify something like that. At school your teachers are the be all and end all. Their opinion and knowledge exceeds that of the parent. I believe in evolution and take offense at the teacher thinks it is merely an interesting theory. My son, who loves science, has lost respect for his teacher.

LordRage · Post by **LordRage** » 13 Feb 2008, 14:53

jamin_za wrote: Show me a member of parliament that that statement is not true for!

I think Mbeki is once again trying to leave his mark on history - and once again he is failing.

Remember all his bluster about an African renaissance during his first term

His quiet diplomacy let Southern Africa slip into the gaping maw of total anarchy. And while he was off being a big shot diplomat, his country stumbled into an an HIV pandemic, an energy crisis and so many other wonderful things.
I think it is actually safe to say that Africa is further from a renaissance now than it was before Mbeki took office!

Mbeki will forever be remembered as the anticlimax that followed Mandela.
The sooner we are rid of him, the sooner we can brace ourselves for (hopefully only) 4 years of Zuma.
Then maybe we can get this place back on track. Assuming there is anything left by then.

QFT.

You summed it up nicely!!

DeanMF · Post by **DeanMF** » 13 Feb 2008, 14:59

Excuse me??? Zuma will NEVER bring SA back on track. I am sorry, but he will stuff up this country more than it is already.

LordRage · Post by **LordRage** » 13 Feb 2008, 15:02

I think he meant the country will maybe get back on track after Zuma. I would imagine this is what he meant by the use of the words "brace", "only" etc. If I am incorrect I will have to un-QFT it though, lol.

Website · Post by **hamin_aus** » 13 Feb 2008, 15:13

No, your QFT stands.

And may I add to that a RTFM and point it in Dean's direction

Tribble · Post by **Tribble** » 13 Feb 2008, 15:16

LordRage · Post by **LordRage** » 13 Feb 2008, 15:18

lol, thats good, cos editing is always a hassle

Slasher · Post by **Slasher** » 13 Feb 2008, 15:23

Tribble wrote:That is rather two faced indeed. Duplicity should not be allowed.

@ Slasher - If I said to you that DX10 was an entertaining / interesting idea but that I believed that it would never take off - and that you don't have to believe in it either. How can you justify something like that. At school your teachers are the be all and end all. Their opinion and knowledge exceeds that of the parent. I believe in evolution and take offense at the teacher thinks it is merely an interesting theory. My son, who loves science, has lost respect for his teacher.

See it from someone elses side. What if your child was in a class and a teacher started on Christianity or Satanism and said she does not believe in it and neither do they need to? Would you have been AS upset if it was something that was a non-negative to your personal beliefs?

I would be hellishly upset if I was told that evolution is a fact that I must learn and 'believe' it. Much like how would you feel if the teacher started giving facts about satanism and said nothing about it being merely a choice of religion and just started dishing out the facts as if it IS the TRUTH?

Ike · Post by **Ike** » 13 Feb 2008, 15:34

DAE_JA_VOO wrote:
Ike wrote:ummm... whites make up 6.2% of s.a's total populace. if you account all our lovely Nigerian and Zimbabwean populace it's more like 4%.
Sheesh, is it THAT little? I knew it was little but i didn't know it was THAT little. Wow.

You don't perhaps have a link to support that, do you?

No, not a credible one. Our last census was held in 2001, stated 9.6% but think of all the people you know has left. the DA recently did a study and estimated that 900 000 white south africans have left.

besides the obvious, do yourself a favor and take a ride north on the highway to pietersburg, and then drive from there to burgersfort, tzaneen , mokopane, the border and it's easy to see why you "think" it's more... people in towns and cities don't really actually grasp how fast the population of south africa is growing.

(on topic) ~ seriously wtf is wrong with the ANC?

Website · Post by **hamin_aus** » 13 Feb 2008, 15:42

Slasher wrote:I would be hellishly upset if I was told that evolution is a fact that I must learn and 'believe' it. Much like how would you feel if the teacher started giving facts about satanism and said nothing about it being merely a choice of religion and just started dishing out the facts as if it IS the TRUTH?

Nobody is going to force you believe something at school.
But yes, you would be expected to learn it.

Interesting story (or not): in highschool we had a number of "filler subjects". Subjects like vocational guidance, physical education, and, of course, religious instruction.

In Std 9 we had a teacher I'll call Mr H who was a devout saved Christian. Now as luck would have it, he was the one who took us for RI. Usually this was a period where the teacher would let us go sit on the grounds, or else play cards or whatever in the classroom. But no, Mr H wanted to share the word with us.
He was a very nice man, and I liked him and up till then I also had a lot of respect for him.
But I gave him hell all year. I would argue with him endlessly and made every cornerstone of his belief a point of contention.

I remember we had a huge argument over the end of the world - this was in 1997. He told me it would be before the end of 2001 and I told him he was a lunatic (although in a nice way).

Anyway it is now 2008, and one day will go and rub it in his face.

Point I am making is that sometimes it's best not to interject your opinions because not only could it confuse a learner, but it could also cost you their respect

rustypup · Post by **rustypup** » 13 Feb 2008, 15:51

jamin_za wrote:religious instruction.

we had this during basics as well - thoroughly pointless, but it did provide a chance to catch up on all that missing sleep without being shouted awake every 2 minutes...

imagine being selected to preach to a room full of snoring rowers...

translation: greenhorns/noobs

simply put, indoctrination begins at home - no creed, however you may decorate it, will resolve something as crippling as those issues currently facing the nation. it is disturbing to think that there are people out there who believe it can....

lancelot · Post by **lancelot** » 13 Feb 2008, 15:53

Teachers are only people and sometimes get carried away, I could not imagine what it would be like teaching a bunch of ignorants like we have on this forum, all teachers should have their pay doubled today.

The school inspector is assigned to the grade 4 class in one of the local schools. He is introduced to the class by the teacher. She says to the class: "Let's show the inspector just how clever you are by allowing him to ask you a question."

The inspector reasons that normally class starts with religious instructions, so he will ask a biblical question. He asks: "Class, who broke down the walls of Jericho?"

For a full minute there is absolute silence. The children all just stare at him blankly. Eventually Sipho raises his hand. The Inspector excitedly points to him. Sipho stands up and replies: "Sir, I do not know who broke down the walls of Jericho, but I can assure you it wasn't me."

Of course the inspector is shocked by the answer and looks at the teacher for an explanation.
Realizing that he is perturbed, the teacher says: "Well, I've known Sipho since the beginning of the year, and I believe that if he says that he didn't do it, then he didn't do it."

The inspector is even more shocked at this and storms down to the Principal's office and tells him what happened, to which the principal replies: "I don't know the boy, but I socialize every now and then with his teacher, and I believe her. If she feels that the boy is innocent, then he must be innocent."

The inspector can't believe what he is hearing. He grabs the phone on the principal's desk and in a rage dials the Minister of Education's telephone number and rattles the entire occurrence to Him and asks him what he thinks of the education standard in SA.

The Minister sighs heavily and replies: "I don't know the boy, the teacher, nor the principal, but just get three quotes and have the wall fixed!!"

OBE is the reason for the decline.

rustypup · Post by **rustypup** » 13 Feb 2008, 16:07

lancelot wrote:OBE is the reason for the decline.

sadly true....

Tribble · Post by **Tribble** » 13 Feb 2008, 16:11

That I agree with.

@Slasher - you can hardly equate Darwin with Satanism. 8O

Post by **KillerByte** » 13 Feb 2008, 16:12

wow, this thread has soared to new heights.

Firstly, I agree with the idea that evolution should be introduced to the kids - even though I am a Christian I feel that any religion that does not full evaluate scientific ideas is doomed to be forgotten by the populus. I however do not believe in Evolution as a whole theory and only find some aspects of it (ie adaption) to be believable.

I personally think that teaching Evolution in schools is as do-able as teaching Quantum Physics or thermal dynamics. The theory is just to large and complicated to explain at school level.

Website · Post by **hamin_aus** » 13 Feb 2008, 16:25

KillerByte wrote:I personally think that teaching Evolution in schools is as do-able as teaching Quantum Physics or thermal dynamics. The theory is just to large and complicated to explain at school level.

I disagree.

The basic theory of evolution - and no, I don't mean survival of the fittest! - is very basic and any high schooler should be able to grasp it, even tho they may not believe it.
I think we must just be careful how deeply we delve into it at that level.
And we must make sure the kids know it is only a theory.
Science does not deal in unqualified absolutes.