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the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
Forum rules
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NOTE: posts in this section are not counted towards your total.
The global forum rules are found here.
NOTE: posts in this section are not counted towards your total.
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-Prometheus-
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Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
Last edited by -Prometheus- on 04 Apr 2011, 04:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
The law doesn't keep people together - but it does force them to work at the relationship, which they might not have done if it was easy to leave.
Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
"Integrity" and "integer" both contain a Latin root meaning "whole; complete." The root sense, then, is that people may be said to be acting with integrity when their beliefs, words, and actions have a sense of unity or wholeness.
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hamin_aus
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Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
The term is in community of property.-Prometheus- wrote:The thing is that when people marry they also sign a contract which is within communion of goods by default.
And this is a terrible idea as when your partner incurs debt, since your assets are shared, you become equally liable.
Any debt that is incurred during the marriage is shared. But worse that that, even if you divorce and your partner is not able to repay their debt incurred during the marriage, you can be held liable for all of it.
I know some people who own businesses who keep all their personal assets (houses, cars, bank accounts etc) on their spouse's name - so if the business ever fails their private property can never be liquidated.
Of course, as I always remind them, it also means that if their spouse ever divorces them, they get it all
I think getting married in separation costs about R2000 extra, but it's well worth it - especially if you are planning to start a business or engage in some other financial venture with an element of risk.
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Tribble
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Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
I assumed that most people got married with an anti-nuptial contract - I did. That way you are protected. And yes - I started a business so we put everything in my hubby's name, to protect it. There is no point any more as we are now both partners. The sad thing is - when you are in love and wanting to get married, divorce and bankruptcy are the last things on your mind. They do nothing and then by default they are married in community of property. If they get divorced - everything is split down the middle. So if one of them had a lot of equity going into the marriage - the spouse is entitled to half of it. Unfair I say - but hey, when you are in love you want to share everything. It is when the love is no longer there that the problems arise.
Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
Is that not what marriage is? *grins*jamin_za wrote:... especially if you are planning to start a business or engage in some other financial venture with an element of risk.
@Tribbs, Its not always with what you came into the marriage - sometimes both has nothing, and equally input - often having the policies and the main pension in the husband's name because the wife takes time off to have the children, take them to school, juggling her work, her own time, her husband time with the children's needs. Some of this can never be measured in monetary value... but most often, its the wife who is left with far less in a divorce. Sad, but true - although there are many men out there that really bring their side, this is not the rule.
"Integrity" and "integer" both contain a Latin root meaning "whole; complete." The root sense, then, is that people may be said to be acting with integrity when their beliefs, words, and actions have a sense of unity or wholeness.
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Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
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Last edited by -Prometheus- on 04 Apr 2011, 04:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
@jee - that is always a problem - but one we have to live with. Or we just stay married.
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Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
I have not heard of this before...-Prometheus- wrote:if one spouse earns less than the other or maybe even nothing at all the income will be split between both with each only paying tax on their portion so you can end up paying only half the tax or maybe none at all.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but AFAIK you pay tax on what you earn. You can claim a spouse as a dependant, but you don't get to halve your taxes just because your spouse is not working.
If by personal assets you mean stuff you alread had going into the marriage, then yes, you keep those.-Prometheus- wrote:Personal assets and gifts remain yours.
But AFAIK in community of property if you buy a house during the marriage and then get divorced, the house gets split. No matter whose name it was on or who actually paid for it.
Although the trend now seems to be to try and structure the split so that the one party (usually the one keeping the kids) keeps the house.
Claiming and being entitled are two different things.-Prometheus- wrote:If you think that not sharing your assets will protect you then you are wrong there too. Even if the house is in your name your spouse can still claim up to half of the estate for the work or money that they contributed to the relationship. This is also true for unmarried couples.
Claiming half of your spouses property requires proof that you contributed monetarily in separation of property - just saying I stayed at home and looked after the kids so I must get half wont cut it. I've seen that argument fail in divorce proceedings IRL.
But then I have heard of some ludicrous claims win... I guess it's all down to the magistrate who hears the case...
It's easy not to have your name anywhere in the business, but there are almost as many laws protecting creditors as there are protecting debtors.-Prometheus- wrote:You should never do business under your name in any case.
The paper-trail of most CC's and LLC's etc eventually lead back to the owner(s) in some way.
Nothing dodgy about putting personal assets and even cold hard cash in your spouse's name to protect it in my book.
Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
Nope, too often "good" lawyer and "bitter fighting" go hand in hand. Its also not just a situation of "taking care of the kids". The children will move one - the wife, after giving much of her time and energy will be worse off in the end. All haggard and stretch-marked...-Prometheus- wrote: @jee: If the wife leaves with less than her husband it's because she didn't have a good lawyer. A good one will make the argument that taking care of his kids alone is worth half of what he has.
"Integrity" and "integer" both contain a Latin root meaning "whole; complete." The root sense, then, is that people may be said to be acting with integrity when their beliefs, words, and actions have a sense of unity or wholeness.
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KatrynKat
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Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
you're still beautiful mamma... 
remember.... segsy mamma...
remember.... segsy mamma...
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Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
Just how I like them!jee wrote: All haggard and stretch-marked...
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Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
I have no idea what you lot are saying, I am a simpleton after all 
.
From my side when I marry, my accounts and debt stay mind and the same is true for my SO. I wont be doing joint bank accounts or anything to that effect. What's mine is mine and whats hers is hers. Thankfully she sees it that way as well.
.From my side when I marry, my accounts and debt stay mind and the same is true for my SO. I wont be doing joint bank accounts or anything to that effect. What's mine is mine and whats hers is hers. Thankfully she sees it that way as well.
JUSTICE, n A commodity which is a more or less adulterated condition the State sells to the citizen as a reward for his allegiance, taxes and personal service.
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Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
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Last edited by -Prometheus- on 04 Apr 2011, 04:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
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Last edited by -Prometheus- on 04 Apr 2011, 04:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Tribble
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Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
NEVER NEVER have a joint account - you cannot control what the other takes out. If the marriage breaks down - you don't want to find yourself with nothing if they clear the account out.
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Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
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Last edited by -Prometheus- on 04 Apr 2011, 04:42, edited 1 time in total.
Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
prenup agreement people .... she says no go find another girl end of story
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Tribble
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Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
@-Prometheus- it is sweet how naive you are. Just keep your eyes open.
Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
Right. I am going to attempt to argue in favour of a religion. I will put out a set of beliefs that I "hold to" and then you guys can have a go at me. Anyone is free to join my side if they so choose.
In order to make this somewhat productive though, I suggest we keep it fairly serious? I am not out to ridicule religion with this.
So:
1) God exists.
2) There is a heaven where our eyes are opened.
3) There is no Hell, but its feigned existence is necessary for our development.
4) There might have been a Jesus.
5) The Bible is NOT inerrant. It was inspired by God, but not dictated by Him. So was the Qu'ran and a host of other holy books.
6) God loves us in ways we can't imagine.
You are free to ask me to elaborate on my "beliefs". Any takers?
In order to make this somewhat productive though, I suggest we keep it fairly serious? I am not out to ridicule religion with this.
So:
1) God exists.
2) There is a heaven where our eyes are opened.
3) There is no Hell, but its feigned existence is necessary for our development.
4) There might have been a Jesus.
5) The Bible is NOT inerrant. It was inspired by God, but not dictated by Him. So was the Qu'ran and a host of other holy books.
6) God loves us in ways we can't imagine.
You are free to ask me to elaborate on my "beliefs". Any takers?
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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Prime
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Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
Why do you believe that God loves you?KALSTER wrote:Right. I am going to attempt to argue in favour of a religion. I will put out a set of beliefs that I "hold to" and then you guys can have a go at me. Anyone is free to join my side if they so choose.
In order to make this somewhat productive though, I suggest we keep it fairly serious? I am not out to ridicule religion with this.
So:
1) God exists.
2) There is a heaven where our eyes are opened.
3) There is no Hell, but its feigned existence is necessary for our development.
4) There might have been a Jesus.
5) The Bible is NOT inerrant. It was inspired by God, but not dictated by Him. So was the Qu'ran and a host of other holy books.
6) God loves us in ways we can't imagine.
You are free to ask me to elaborate on my "beliefs". Any takers?
Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
Well, love is somewhat of an encompassing term. God, as a being of infinite wisdom, capability and understanding, knows exactly how and why I feel at any time.
Also, as our creator, he has a plan for us. The famous plan is somewhat more complicated than as it is related by other believers. If we are to be individuals, we have to experience life and grow into a person. It would not be the same if God simply wished us all into existence. During this process we go through tribulations that he has the capacity to experience right along with us in a variety of ways, including from our precise perspective. He understands us and sees and feels the whole picture or any part of a subjective variant of it. His plan is precisely that we exist, develop and then experience the bliss of enlightenment after physical death as individuals, but also as parts of a whole. As a God of infinite wisdom, capability and understanding, the only reason for creating us (or rather the conditions that would produce us) can be for us to share in the splendour of an enlightened existence free from fear and negative concerns, filled with beauty, reverence and love. His love consists of understanding and fellowship.
Also, as our creator, he has a plan for us. The famous plan is somewhat more complicated than as it is related by other believers. If we are to be individuals, we have to experience life and grow into a person. It would not be the same if God simply wished us all into existence. During this process we go through tribulations that he has the capacity to experience right along with us in a variety of ways, including from our precise perspective. He understands us and sees and feels the whole picture or any part of a subjective variant of it. His plan is precisely that we exist, develop and then experience the bliss of enlightenment after physical death as individuals, but also as parts of a whole. As a God of infinite wisdom, capability and understanding, the only reason for creating us (or rather the conditions that would produce us) can be for us to share in the splendour of an enlightened existence free from fear and negative concerns, filled with beauty, reverence and love. His love consists of understanding and fellowship.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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Prime
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Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
I'm not following your logic. You claim he has a plan but then state that it is a very complicated plan. You don't sound certain of this plan? And further, that means we have no free will. Are we really loving him if it's against our will?KALSTER wrote:Well, love is somewhat of an encompassing term. God, as a being of infinite wisdom, capability and understanding, knows exactly how and why I feel at any time.
Also, as our creator, he has a plan for us. The famous plan is somewhat more complicated than as it is related by other believers. If we are to be individuals, we have to experience life and grow into a person. It would not be the same if God simply wished us all into existence. During this process we go through tribulations that he has the capacity to experience right along with us in a variety of ways, including from our precise perspective. He understands us and sees and feels the whole picture or any part of a subjective variant of it. His plan is precisely that we exist, develop and then experience the bliss of enlightenment after physical death as individuals, but also as parts of a whole. As a God of infinite wisdom, capability and understanding, the only reason for creating us (or rather the conditions that would produce us) can be for us to share in the splendour of an enlightened existence free from fear and negative concerns, filled with beauty, reverence and love. His love consists of understanding and fellowship.
And didn't he wish us all into existence in the first place?
Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
Not very complicated, just a bit more than simply us getting to heaven to bask in His glory for eternity.I'm not following your logic. You claim he has a plan but then state that it is a very complicated plan. You don't sound certain of this plan? And further, that means we have free will. Are we really loving him if it's against our will?
And didn't he wish us all into existence in the first place?
The plan is the only one it could ever be given the parameters it has to exist in, namely the existence of a being of infinite wisdom, capability and understanding. What does such a being do all by itself? It creates a universe that would have as result beings that would form on their own, capable of being true individuals in their own right. Beings capable of appreciating the revelation of enlightenment upon physical death. Beings that can provide true fellowship as they formed on their own and are not simply artificial beings poofed into existence.
We have free will, which will inevitably result in some not believing in him. In fact, given the clues available and the logic some are privy to, some can't believe in Him. That is not a problem though. Everyone gains enlightenment after death.
He created only the universe with its laws in a way that would have the capacity of producing beings such as ourselves. We can have communion with him, but only ever in a limited sense based on the available context we are capable of and it is not required for enlightenment after death. How do I know that that is why we exist? Because we exist. It is the only reason we can exist given the parameters of our existence.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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Re: the (mainly) non-Christians thread.
My feelings on this:
", knows exactly how and why I feel at any time. "
>Does that make sense? if there was a god, why on earth would he care what you're thinking? What makes you think that you're thoughts are so important, that a god-being would sit and listen to your thoughts? Isn't that a bit conceited, indulgent and egotistic?
"Also, as our creator"
> The whole creator thing is old by now...but, who created the creator? What about evolution? How did he create us? When did he create us? Science has a full explanation that is regarded as an excellent solution to some of those questions...
"he has a plan for us."
> Prime has a good point, let me add to it, Free will. The idea of a plan for your life is very comforting, i get it. But I completely disagree -especially on this. If there is a plan, what if I decide to go the other way? What would happen? Would it not be true, that if there is a plan for one person, that, in the entire existence of that person, and all the interactions, and indirect interactions, and the interactions of those who he has interacted with, ripple ripple ripple ripple.....that, if that person decided to go against this plan, he would ruin it for all of us?(if the plan was for us all to be happy and so forth) The idea of a plan for us all, is a total fallacy. No matter ho new-age you try and make it sound.
"We have free will, which will inevitably result in some not believing in him. In fact, given the clues available and the logic some are privy to, some can't believe in Him. That is not a problem though. Everyone gains enlightenment after death"
>You make it sound as if free will is some by-product, an inevitability, and that due to it, it could result in some of us not believing...but is that not the exact point of free will? Is not the notion of choice, in some senses, a rebellion against god and the rules and teachings that w must obey or burn...the motivator and engine that drives us to better technology, better medicine, a better understanding of our psyche? The power to choose no god, is not a result, it is a beginning. And your conclusion that we will all receive enlightenment after death is ridiculous! In any constructive argument, one cannot simply conclude that whatever has been said does not matter, because in the end you are right anyway...if you really want to have this debate, conclusions like that cannot happen, unless we all agree that free will does not exist and we live in a strict deterministic reality. <<-- look at that sentence " we all agree" . An excellent example of choice and free will. Deterministic debate is dead.
"n a way that would have the capacity of producing beings such as ourselves"
> You contradicted yourself. Did god create us or did the universe produce us?
There was some talk about christianity on another local forum. Some-one suggested, that you may only call yourself a christian or a muslim or agnostic or atheist, if you abide by the rules of your religion. The idea that you can believe what you want to believe(*read* selective) is contradictory to most main-stream religions. You are either in or out, hot or cold.
I obviously think that rules, notions and ideologies from 4000 years ago is stupid and deteriorative to our development. Believe what you want, but..it is fun to debate it, it is informative and conducive to thought.
Some questions....
Why does heaven exist and not hell? Are they not the exact same thing?
Why do you think Jesus existed, when there is no proof of it in any way what so-ever, for someone so important, why is there no proof?
Would a god exhibit love? As love is only a word given to chemical reactions and uber basic human instinct? Is your idea of love not incorrect? Do you think love is an emotion?
Eyes opened? to what?
**thanks for starting this debate
", knows exactly how and why I feel at any time. "
>Does that make sense? if there was a god, why on earth would he care what you're thinking? What makes you think that you're thoughts are so important, that a god-being would sit and listen to your thoughts? Isn't that a bit conceited, indulgent and egotistic?
"Also, as our creator"
> The whole creator thing is old by now...but, who created the creator? What about evolution? How did he create us? When did he create us? Science has a full explanation that is regarded as an excellent solution to some of those questions...
"he has a plan for us."
> Prime has a good point, let me add to it, Free will. The idea of a plan for your life is very comforting, i get it. But I completely disagree -especially on this. If there is a plan, what if I decide to go the other way? What would happen? Would it not be true, that if there is a plan for one person, that, in the entire existence of that person, and all the interactions, and indirect interactions, and the interactions of those who he has interacted with, ripple ripple ripple ripple.....that, if that person decided to go against this plan, he would ruin it for all of us?(if the plan was for us all to be happy and so forth) The idea of a plan for us all, is a total fallacy. No matter ho new-age you try and make it sound.
"We have free will, which will inevitably result in some not believing in him. In fact, given the clues available and the logic some are privy to, some can't believe in Him. That is not a problem though. Everyone gains enlightenment after death"
>You make it sound as if free will is some by-product, an inevitability, and that due to it, it could result in some of us not believing...but is that not the exact point of free will? Is not the notion of choice, in some senses, a rebellion against god and the rules and teachings that w must obey or burn...the motivator and engine that drives us to better technology, better medicine, a better understanding of our psyche? The power to choose no god, is not a result, it is a beginning. And your conclusion that we will all receive enlightenment after death is ridiculous! In any constructive argument, one cannot simply conclude that whatever has been said does not matter, because in the end you are right anyway...if you really want to have this debate, conclusions like that cannot happen, unless we all agree that free will does not exist and we live in a strict deterministic reality. <<-- look at that sentence " we all agree" . An excellent example of choice and free will. Deterministic debate is dead.
"n a way that would have the capacity of producing beings such as ourselves"
> You contradicted yourself. Did god create us or did the universe produce us?
There was some talk about christianity on another local forum. Some-one suggested, that you may only call yourself a christian or a muslim or agnostic or atheist, if you abide by the rules of your religion. The idea that you can believe what you want to believe(*read* selective) is contradictory to most main-stream religions. You are either in or out, hot or cold.
I obviously think that rules, notions and ideologies from 4000 years ago is stupid and deteriorative to our development. Believe what you want, but..it is fun to debate it, it is informative and conducive to thought.
Some questions....
Why does heaven exist and not hell? Are they not the exact same thing?
Why do you think Jesus existed, when there is no proof of it in any way what so-ever, for someone so important, why is there no proof?
Would a god exhibit love? As love is only a word given to chemical reactions and uber basic human instinct? Is your idea of love not incorrect? Do you think love is an emotion?
Eyes opened? to what?
**thanks for starting this debate
