A thread not for the easily offended

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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

Post by KALSTER »

Tribble wrote:Bwahahahahahahahahaha he would not have been amused
Nope. :)
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

Post by Anakha56 »

Spoke to a couple of Afrikaans people here at work and they say that it is correct. Depends on how you want to take the translation at the end of the day.

/I really did not know the above. I always news prys as price thats why I had to ask... :oops:
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

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Anakha56 wrote:Spoke to a couple of Afrikaans people here at work and they say that it is correct. Depends on how you want to take the translation at the end of the day.

/I really did not know the above. I always news prys as price thats why I had to ask... :oops:
And that's the joke. :)

It doesn't translate well as you've demonstrated. Closest would have been if he had said: "Appraise the lord!". :)
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

Post by StarPhoenix »

Yeah....about that....who audits The Riches of Heaven?
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

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http://www.engadget.com/2013/07/04/stem ... rce=feedly
Scientists grow human liver from stem cells, hope to relieve transplant woes

Stem cell research has resulted in several important breakthroughs in medicine, such as rebuilding the larynx and regenerating spinal cord connectors. Now the liver, one of the most highly sought after organs on the donor transplant list, could get some serious stem cell assistance as well. A team of scientists led by Takanori Takebe of Yokohama City University has successfully created a miniature version of the human liver with the help of induced pluripotent stem cells (iPSC), which are derived from adult somatic cells. They developed the iPSC into generalized liver cells called hepatocytes, at which point the researchers mixed in endothelial cells and mesenchymal stem cells, left the petri dishes alone for a couple days, and voila -- an extremely tiny version of a human liver, said to be the first-ever functional human organ grown from stem cells, was born.

The liver "buds," as they're known, measure five millimeters long and are the sort you would find in human embryos shortly after fertilization. When implanted in mice, the baby livers managed to perform all the functions of their adult equivalents. The researchers' next step would be to generate liver buds that are a touch closer to normal liver tissue -- like the addition of bile ducts -- and to see if they can mass produce them by the tens of thousands. Don't go wasting your liver just yet though, as it'll likely be years before the likes of you and me will be able to have a lab-grown liver in our bodies.
Hey Stu some movement in the field ;). Could be a bowel movement but hey baby steps... :P BTW Time lapse video if you follow the link...
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

Post by Stuart »

Anakha56 wrote:Hey Stu some movement in the field ;). Could be a bowel movement but hey baby steps... :P
which are derived from adult somatic cells
You're not quite following the argument here, are you?
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

Post by Anakha56 »

:lol: And you are not following the argument that an achievement made in one related field can yield results in the other ;).
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

Post by Stuart »

Anakha56 wrote::lol: And you are not following the argument that an achievement made in one related field can yield results in the other ;).
No one objects to research with adult stem cells, which can and has achieved results quite apart from embryonic stem cell research.
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

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http://mybroadband.co.za/news/general/8 ... etina.html
Stem cell breakthrough restores sight to damaged retina
Blind mice have been able to see once more in a laboratory experiment that further boosts the fast-moving field of retinal therapy

Blind mice have been able to see once more in a laboratory exploit that marks a further boost for the fast-moving field of retinal therapy, according to a study published on Sunday.

Scientists in Britain used stem cells — early-stage, highly versatile cells — taken from mice embryos, and cultured them in a lab dish so that they differentiated into immature photoreceptors, the light-catching cells in the retina.

Around 200,000 of these cells were then injected into the mice’s retinas, some of which integrated smoothly with local cells to restore sight.

The rodents were put through their paces in a water maze and examined by optometry to confirm that they responded to light.

Embryonic stem cells “could in future provide a potentially unlimited supply of health photoreceptors for retinal transplantations to treat blindness in humans,” Britain’s Medical Research Council (MRC) said in a press release.

...
Progress! ;) :P
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

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Anakha56 wrote:Progress! ;) :P
taken from mice embryos
Mice embryos, human embryos - chalk and cheese.
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

Post by Anakha56 »

Stuart wrote:
Anakha56 wrote:Progress! ;) :P
taken from mice embryos
Mice embryos, human embryos - chalk and cheese.

*sigh*

Splitting hairs really? :roll: It is still a significant step in the research of stem cells especially embryonic stem cells hence for the progress part in my post. Now with this development one can move forward to human embryonic stem cell research. Let me try a different approach that you might understand better "God created Dinosaurs, found them to be inadequate, killed them off and created man. Found his initial attempts to be to immoral, saved his favorite pets, killed the rest and started over." Science is pretty much the same thing, try it out on small scale before jumping into the bigger mess. I am starting to suspect that even if I find the research paper you are so desperately wanting (wont happen just yet, again baby steps) you would still turn around and say some part is invalid.
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

Post by Stuart »

Anakha56 wrote:
Stuart wrote:
Anakha56 wrote:Progress! ;) :P
taken from mice embryos
Mice embryos, human embryos - chalk and cheese.

*sigh*

Splitting hairs really?
Not at all. This is an ethical debate. I have an ethical problem with killing humans. Rats, not so much.
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

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Erm but a embryo is hardly human? :scratch: This is going to be one of those discussions as to what defines a human isn't it? At the that early stage of development it is just that: an it. It has no thought process, awareness or any other traits of something that is human let alone animal heck at the age a brain has not formed. If we are going to start talking about metaphysical and what could be or could not be then the argument falls into a realm that will benefit neither side.
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

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Anakha56 wrote:Erm but a embryo is hardly human? :scratch: This is going to be one of those discussions as to what defines a human isn't it?
Well, yes, that is exactly what the big ethical debate is about. Prolifers argue humanity from conception; pro-abortionists argue humanity from some undefined point (or at least a point on which not everyone agrees). That's exactly why there is a debate. The argument is that it is wrong to use human embryos for research because you are, in effect, killing a human for research purposes. Using adult stem cells or even animal stem cells is not the same thing.
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

Post by hamin_aus »

Anakha56 wrote:to start talking about metaphysical and what could be or could not be then the argument falls into a realm that will benefit neither side.
I disagree!
Once you lower your standards of argument and begin to make allowances for the metaphysical Stu and his ilk instantly have the advantage. Their whole world revolves around what-if's and imagine-that's.... the metaphysical is the straw out of which they can make not just an embryo - but a whole man.
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

Post by StarBound »

Do you prefer your eggs boiled or scrambled?

When does life start? At the first heart beat or the first breath of air? And on that when is someone dead? When the heart stops beating or the brain stops functioning?

For the record I am pro abortion.
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

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For me once the embryo develops into something akin to human (start of legs & arms & such) then its human. Before that stage and definitely at a stage of a couple of days there is nothing human about it. What is the definition of a human? And how does the fertilized egg (4-5 days) be more important than a chimpanzee (or any mammal for that fact) fertilized egg? At that stage they are all a bunch of chemicals trying to decide what they are going to fuse into. :scratch:

Oh and Stu if you are going to be against it because "it is human" then what are your thoughts on this breakthrough: http://www.theage.com.au/technology/sci ... 2jmwp.html
Breakthrough: stem cells from a cloned embryo
Date
May 15, 2013

Scientists have used caffeine to achieve a stem cell breakthrough that many researchers thought impossible but that could lead to new therapies for many crippling diseases.

A US team used a human skin cell to create a cloned human embryo from which they were able to extract embryonic stem cells, a world first.
So is that a problem? I mean it is clone from a piece of skin so does that mean whomever they cloned it from they have killed that persons twin? :scratch:
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

Post by StarBound »

It would be easier if we could define someone human by seeing if that person has a soul but I am pretty sure some people are soulless bastards regardless.

I'm pro abort because if those parents aren't in the position to support that child your effectively denying that child a proper life while alive. Then there are rape victims, after birth dumpings, ect. It's all fine and well to say remove the irrisponsible barers from society or life but that leaves the offspring.

...maybe I am missing something. The topic is abortions or whether cloning is acceptable?
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

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Anakha56 wrote:For me once the embryo develops into something akin to human (start of legs & arms & such) then its human. Before that stage and definitely at a stage of a couple of days there is nothing human about it. What is the definition of a human?
Even a hardened pro-abortion atheist like Peter Singer would disagree with you here.
[The argument that a fetus is not alive] is a resort to a convenient fiction that turns an evidently living being into one that legally is not alive. Instead of accepting such fictions, we should recognise that the fact that a being is human, and alive, does not in itself tell us whether it is wrong to take that being's life.
Consistent with his beliefs, by the way, Singer is not only pro-abortion, but also pro-infanticide.
I use the term "person" to refer to a being who is capable of anticipating the future, of having wants and desires for the future. As I have said in answer to the previous question, I think that it is generally a greater wrong to kill such a being than it is to kill a being that has no sense of existing over time. Newborn human babies have no sense of their own existence over time. So killing a newborn baby is never equivalent to killing a person, that is, a being who wants to go on living. That doesn't mean that it is not almost always a terrible thing to do. It is, but that is because most infants are loved and cherished by their parents, and to kill an infant is usually to do a great wrong to its parents.

Sometimes, perhaps because the baby has a serious disability, parents think it better that their newborn infant should die. Many doctors will accept their wishes, to the extent of not giving the baby life-supporting medical treatment. That will often ensure that the baby dies. My view is different from this, only to the extent that if a decision is taken, by the parents and doctors, that it is better that a baby should die, I believe it should be possible to carry out that decision, not only by withholding or withdrawing life-support – which can lead to the baby dying slowly from dehydration or from an infection – but also by taking active steps to end the baby's life swiftly and humanely.
That's at least an honest and consistent viewpoint. Dead wrong, of course, but it takes the argument to its logical conclusion.
Anakha56 wrote:And how does the fertilized egg (4-5 days) be more important than a chimpanzee (or any mammal for that fact) fertilized egg?
Human versus animal.
Anakha56 wrote:At that stage they are all a bunch of chemicals trying to decide what they are going to fuse into. :scratch:
So a an egg from a human mother, fertilised by the sperm of a human father can "decide" to fuse into an elephant?
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

Post by Stuart »

StarBound wrote:...maybe I am missing something. The topic is abortions or whether cloning is acceptable?
Cloning is another issue entirely. I'm not sure that I'm prepared to enter into that debate.
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

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Your Peter Singer quote, judging by the way it is written, is arguing a case for a child a good couple of months into term. I am arguing the couple of days where a fetus has just been fertilized and its at that point that embryonic stem cell research begins and at that point there is no anticipating any future from the chemical set. Although I could be wrong because everything I am arguing with is from Google and me being curious :P.

:lol: So in a DNA match where some animals are very close to human are you saying just because they have fur, speak in a language you do not understand and are less technologically advanced (well no tech but hey) than us that makes them animal? Hmmm I seem to remember the Ender Saga debating the same thing just because the Humans did not understand the "Aliens" did not make them any less human. They still have feelings, talk to each other and were able to feel love and the loss of a partner. So again what is human & what is animal? Why are we considering ourselves more important than what is around us? Animals have shown that they feel love (hamin I am arguing metaphysical here :P ) and have shown a great empathy at the loss of one of their own so what makes animals less than human?

:lol: That is one extreme to look at it. No I was going for the less extreme of between male & female or if they were going to be twins and what type of twins and all the other lovely variables that will be the final product. Heck if memory serves we are all developed as twins but actually consume our twin as we go along. Sorry should have been more clear.

History is full of acts where "man" has shown himself to be less than animals heck some of what happens now would be considered less than due to the extreme nature of the acts.

To be clear I am arguing that a embryo a couple of days into term is not yet human because at that stage it is still chemicals bonding and coming together, yes it is a significant moment because two "alien" chemical sets are coming together and might form into a human being but that stage it is not human. I am also arguing that you cannot say human embryos are more important than animal embryos because they are just chemical reactions getting ready to form into what they will. In your own words what is human and what is animal and why are we more important than animals?

Side argument if you are saying that a human embryo a couple of days into fertility is human and we are murdering children then by the same definition we are murdering animals and all experiments using animals embryos should be sued for animal cruelty because what you are doing is cruel to the animal and the unborn animal.
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

Post by StarPhoenix »

My view is that there is no distinction. Homo sapiens is as much of an animal as Pan troglodytes, Felix catus, or Isurus oxyrynchus for that matter.
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

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@Stu no response? Let me take this argument one step further then...

If you are calling the research of embryonic stem cells immoral and that the scientists doing it murders for killing an unborn child then what about when a womans body naturally aborts the fetus? Is she not a murderer then? I can take this argument one step further and say that due to the God design he is the real murderer since it is by his design that a womans body will, at times, naturally abort the fetus. We need a lot more jails if this is the case...

---

http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/08/ ... and-faith/
New meta-analysis checks the correlation between intelligence and faith
First systematic analysis of its kind even proposes reasons for the negative correlation.

More than 400 years before the birth of Jesus of Nazareth, Greek playwright Euripides wrote in his play Bellerophon, “Doth some one say that there be gods above? There are not; no, there are not. Let no fool, led by the old false fable, thus deceive you.”

Euripides was not an atheist and only used the word “fool” to provoke his audience. But, if you look at the studies conducted over the past century, you will find that those with religious beliefs will, on the whole, score lower on tests of intelligence. That is the conclusion of psychologists Miron Zuckerman and Jordan Silberman of the University of Rochester and Judith Hall of Northeastern University, who have published a meta-analysis in Personality and Social Psychology Review.

This is the first systematic meta-analysis of 63 studies conducted in between 1928 and 2012. In such an analysis, the authors look at each study’s sample size, quality of data collection, and analysis methods, then account for biases that may have inadvertently crept into the work. This data is next refracted through the prism of statistical theory to draw an overarching conclusion of what scholars in this field find. “Our conclusion,” as Zuckerman puts it, “is not new.”

“If you count the number of studies which find a positive correlation against those that find a negative correlation, you can draw the same conclusion because most studies find a negative correlation,” added Zuckerman. But that conclusion would be qualitative, because the studies’ methods vary. “What we have done is to draw that conclusion more accurately through statistical analysis.”

Setting the boundaries

...
Follow the link for further reading.
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

Post by StarPhoenix »

Care to explain the statistics and research to us?
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Re: A thread not for the easily offended

Post by Anakha56 »

For which bit Star? My link on meta-analysis or the natural aborting fetus?
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