Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by Nuke »



For some reason it makes me think of the videos that play in Doom3 on the screens.
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by Tribble »

DarkRanger wrote:So what is the actual chance of this thing backfiring and blowing all of us into the theory of a black hole? (Which will be proven to exist, only problem is that nobody will be freakin there to take notes!)
Can you think of a cooler way to die? I can't. Besides - don't think that will happen. I think it is absolutely amazing. I can't wait to find out what they learn. It is a very exciting time this :lol: We could find out if the Big Bang is real.
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by Prime »

Tribble wrote:
DarkRanger wrote:So what is the actual chance of this thing backfiring and blowing all of us into the theory of a black hole? (Which will be proven to exist, only problem is that nobody will be freakin there to take notes!)
Can you think of a cooler way to die? I can't. Besides - don't think that will happen. I think it is absolutely amazing. I can't wait to find out what they learn. It is a very exciting time this :lol: We could find out if the Big Bang is real.

This should answer some of the questions on black holes 8)


Edit: And no, i could not think of a cooler way, but, because time gets dialated, you could in theory live forever while simultaneously being compacted into something really small. A really slow and painful death :wink:
Last edited by Prime on 13 Sep 2008, 14:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by Prime »

Meh! double post
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by marduke »

Prime wrote:
marduke wrote:
Prime wrote:
Lol. Does she know you are the type who spend your life on the internet :P

Seriously though. the same phenomena that could generate these black holes happens on an almost daily basis from cosmic radiation colliding with the earth's atmosphere and other planets(?) and scientists have yet to observe a single planet being eaten up from a black hole as a result. :)
Yes but those collisions don't happen on the same speed/energy scale as that which they will be attempting with the LHC, so you can't really compare them
I honestly don't know what speed cosmic radiation travels at. :dontknow:
Neither do I, but this should give you a clearer picture of what I'm talking about, it's from a FAQ written by Nuclear Physicist Walter L Wagner:

Q: Wouldn’t more powerful cosmic rays create micro black holes if particle colliders could?
A: Some scientists have argued that cosmic ray collisions are the same as head-on collider conditions, but the facts do not support that assertion. Occasionally a cosmic ray may involve a single proton traveling so fast that it may have more net energy when impacting a relatively stationary particle on Earth, but the results will be safely sent into space. Head-on collider collisions may involve thousands of protons (or protons to anti-protons) colliding all at the same time, head-on at 99.9999991% of the speed of light in both directions (colliding similar to a head-on car collision) in temperatures lower than space with powerful magnetic fields to help focus all the energy to a single point in space (extreme focus of potentially much more mass than a stray cosmic ray) and particles created may be captured by Earth’s gravity, possibly including the first micro black hole that might be created containing thousands of protons or the energy of thousands of protons and/ anti-protons, in the first second of full energy collisions. The differences between cosmic ray impacts and collider collisions are significant and numerous.
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by Prime »

marduke wrote:
Prime wrote:
marduke wrote:
Yes but those collisions don't happen on the same speed/energy scale as that which they will be attempting with the LHC, so you can't really compare them
I honestly don't know what speed cosmic radiation travels at. :dontknow:
Neither do I, but this should give you a clearer picture of what I'm talking about, it's from a FAQ written by Nuclear Physicist Walter L Wagner:


Q: Wouldn’t more powerful cosmic rays create micro black holes if particle colliders could?
A: Some scientists have argued that cosmic ray collisions are the same as head-on collider conditions, but the facts do not support that assertion. Occasionally a cosmic ray may involve a single proton traveling so fast that it may have more net energy when impacting a relatively stationary particle on Earth, but the results will be safely sent into space. Head-on collider collisions may involve thousands of protons (or protons to anti-protons) colliding all at the same time, head-on at 99.9999991% of the speed of light in both directions (colliding similar to a head-on car collision) in temperatures lower than space with powerful magnetic fields to help focus all the energy to a single point in space (extreme focus of potentially much more mass than a stray cosmic ray) and particles created may be captured by Earth’s gravity, possibly including the first micro black hole that might be created containing thousands of protons or the energy of thousands of protons and/ anti-protons, in the first second of full energy collisions. The differences between cosmic ray impacts and collider collisions are significant and numerous.


I don't like the source that this came from but i think it serves to indicate that the guy may be a loon.

Walter Wagner graduated UC Berkeley with a Minor in Physics, and a Major in Biology. Later, he discovered a novel particle in a balloon-borne cosmic ray detector, initially identified as a magnetic monopole. Though its identity remains uncertain, it is definitely not within the standard repertoire of known particles. After a three-year break from science to attend law school, Dr. Wagner resumed work in Physics and Biology at the US Veterans Administration Medical Center in San Francisco, working in Nuclear Medicine and Health Physics. He then embarked on teaching Science and Mathematics, from grade school to college. Dr. Wagner developed a botanical garden in Hawaii, and continues involvement with several professional associations, including Health Physics Society and Society of Nuclear Medicine.
Source He has a minor in Physics. I'm sorry, but the other people have doctorates, so i find him a little less credible than them :roll:

Secondly, i can find little or no evidence substantiating his claims, from reputable scientists. this sounds a bit like the guy in Nigerai who claims he invented the internet. :roll:
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by Prime »

ROFLOL this says it all

edit: And you can read the comments for the article as well but i read about ten and can't be bothered to waist more time :roll:
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by marduke »

Prime wrote: I don't like the source that this came from but i think it serves to indicate that the guy may be a loon.
I point you to the fact sir, that most people thought that Galileo was a loon, as well as Newton, also Einstein...
Walter Wagner graduated UC Berkeley with a Minor in Physics, and a Major in Biology. Later, he discovered a novel particle in a balloon-borne cosmic ray detector, initially identified as a magnetic monopole. Though its identity remains uncertain, it is definitely not within the standard repertoire of known particles. After a three-year break from science to attend law school, Dr. Wagner resumed work in Physics and Biology at the US Veterans Administration Medical Center in San Francisco, working in Nuclear Medicine and Health Physics. He then embarked on teaching Science and Mathematics, from grade school to college. Dr. Wagner developed a botanical garden in Hawaii, and continues involvement with several professional associations, including Health Physics Society and Society of Nuclear Medicine.
Prime wrote:Source He has a minor in Physics. I'm sorry, but the other people have doctorates, so i find him a little less credible than them :roll:

Secondly, i can find little or no evidence substantiating his claims, from reputable scientists. this sounds a bit like the guy in Nigerai who claims he invented the internet. :roll:
You don't need a doctorate to be brilliant. As stated in the site you sourced, the "other" people are the protagonists & therefor have a conflict of interest. If all of a sudden everyone with "doctorates" decided that it was ok to kill, would that automatically make it right? I for one like to view a subject from all sides. Even though he might sound like a crackpot, he does raise some valid questions. Which CERN either laughs off, or cannot provide direct answers to.
Ad homonyms - making personal attacks on a person to try and discredit his argument.
Which is also exactly what you are doing
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by Prime »

marduke wrote:
Prime wrote: I don't like the source that this came from but i think it serves to indicate that the guy may be a loon.
I point you to the fact sir, that most people thought that Galileo was a loon, as well as Newton, also Einstein...
Galileo was persecuted because his views went against main stream religion of the day, and I refuse to bring religion into any discussion in this thread so thats all i shall say... :roll:

As for Newton, i shall not comment for i do not know enough aabout him...

marduke wrote:
Walter Wagner graduated UC Berkeley with a Minor in Physics, and a Major in Biology. Later, he discovered a novel particle in a balloon-borne cosmic ray detector, initially identified as a magnetic monopole. Though its identity remains uncertain, it is definitely not within the standard repertoire of known particles. After a three-year break from science to attend law school, Dr. Wagner resumed work in Physics and Biology at the US Veterans Administration Medical Center in San Francisco, working in Nuclear Medicine and Health Physics. He then embarked on teaching Science and Mathematics, from grade school to college. Dr. Wagner developed a botanical garden in Hawaii, and continues involvement with several professional associations, including Health Physics Society and Society of Nuclear Medicine.
Prime wrote:Source He has a minor in Physics. I'm sorry, but the other people have doctorates, so i find him a little less credible than them :roll:

Secondly, i can find little or no evidence substantiating his claims, from reputable scientists. this sounds a bit like the guy in Nigerai who claims he invented the internet. :roll:
You don't need a doctorate to be brilliant. As stated in the site you sourced, the "other" people are the protagonists & therefor have a conflict of interest. If all of a sudden everyone with "doctorates" decided that it was ok to kill, would that automatically make it right? I for one like to view a subject from all sides. Even though he might sound like a crackpot, he does raise some valid questions. Which CERN either laughs off, or cannot provide direct answers to.
Ad homonyms - making personal attacks on a person to try and discredit his argument.
Which is also exactly what you are doing

I honestly don't feel that the Guy is credible. Besides most of those scientists would be putting their own lives in danger if that machine was dangerous (yes, that may not be a very thorough criteria, but from my personal point of view, i think its pretty good start point)

You will not get a view subject to all sides because the only people who could trully understand what could happen are the mathematicians and the physicists.

I am not making any sort of personal attack. The fact of the matter is that the people at Cern have far more substantial qualifications and far more experience on the matter than this guy.

And, regarding your comments about doctorates and killing people, I will refrain from comment. I am itching to say something that won't go down well :lol:
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by marduke »

Prime wrote: I honestly don't feel that the Guy is credible. Besides most of those scientists would be putting their own lives in danger if that machine was dangerous (yes, that may not be a very thorough criteria, but from my personal point of view, i think its pretty good start point)
Whether he is credible or not, the questions he raised are valid. & if he doesn't ask the questions then who will? He does have at least some qualifications & has at least more understanding then the average joe, which makes him credible in my book.
Prime wrote:You will not get a view subject to all sides because the only people who could trully understand what could happen are the mathematicians and the physicists.
I have to disagree. Stephen Hawking rewrote his book "A Brief History Of Time" to make it more accessible to us mere mortals. I've read it & understood about 90% of what was written. The people at CERN could do the same. If we had a better understanding of the risks involved, if any, then we probably will have less people running around thinking the worlds gonna end. (Also less people offing themselves coz of it too)
Prime wrote:I am not making any sort of personal attack. The fact of the matter is that the people at Cern have far more substantial qualifications and far more experience on the matter than this guy.
& so you trust what they say without question? They have a vested interest in the LHC, there is no way that they will admit it if there is a substantial risk. They've already spent millions (if not billions), there's no turning back now. Oh & for all their qualifications & experience, CERN itself has admitted that they do not know exactly what will happen, they can speculate & make many calculations which might actually turn out to be accurate. Remember, it's called an experiment for a reason.
Prime wrote:And, regarding your comments about doctorates and killing people, I will refrain from comment. I am itching to say something that won't go down well :lol:
Now you've just made me all the more curious, lay it on the table, I can take whatever you can dish out :wink:
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by Prime »

I'm going to answer this at home. Kinda busy at the mo :wink:
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by marduke »

No worries. I am a patient man :)
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by Hex_Rated »

There's a huge black hole in the centre of our galaxy (Sagittarius A), why do people think that a micro black hole would destroy the universe? If anything it would suck what's close enough into it's gravitational field, possibly everything to the Oort Cloud would be in danger of being consumed (don't take my word for it, I haven't done the simulations :P ). Space is too vast and empty for a small black hole to destroy the universe.

Doomsday prophets going crazy as usual, they said that the atmosphere would ignite and cook us all if atom bombs were detonated.

What I'm more worried about is when we have technology so advanced that terrorists can create weapons of mass destruction relatively easily. I think that's the greatest threat we have to survive as a species. Imagine some religious cult or zealots or crazy, tyrannical leaders with hydrogen bombs or a highly contagious, quick acting, GM, airborne AIDS virus?!? That sounds like a far more realistic demise to me than exotic reactions that have minute possibilities of occurrence. There are people out there that would do it and as technology evolves it becomes easier for them to produce something as devastating as WOMD. Also the policy of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) is not very reassuring, don't you think?
marduke wrote:people thought that Galileo was a loon, as well as Newton, also Einstein...
:shock:

People didn't think Einstein or Newton were loons! Newton was the head of maths in Oxford university (a very prestigious position), Einstein won the Nobel prize for physics. Galileo was persecuted due to religious beliefs.
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by Prime »

marduke wrote:No worries. I am a patient man :)

Hi, Sorry, i've had a hectic week and kinda forgot.
Whether he is credible or not, the questions he raised are valid. & if he doesn't ask the questions then who will? He does have at least some qualifications & has at least more understanding then the average joe, which makes him credible in my book.


With in 2 years (because i did not pass physics 2a the first time) i will have (as far as i understand) the same physics qualifications as this guy, a Minor in Physics (which is 2 years undergrad). Unless his physics curse was more intense than ours, This guy will more than likely not have even done quantum mechanics. Still think he is qualified? :wink:

As to the questions, I'm sure a physicist(a fully qualified one) could sit down and explain them. I cannot, I do not posses sufficient knowledge. :lol:

I have to disagree. Stephen Hawking rewrote his book "A Brief History Of Time" to make it more accessible to us mere mortals. I've read it & understood about 90% of what was written. The people at CERN could do the same. If we had a better understanding of the risks involved, if any, then we probably will have less people running around thinking the worlds gonna end. (Also less people offing themselves coz of it too)
I have not read This book. so i can't really comment. What i will say is "Wizard's first rule: People are stupid" and unfortunately the media are to blame for promoting ignorance. :roll:

& so you trust what they say without question? They have a vested interest in the LHC, there is no way that they will admit it if there is a substantial risk. They've already spent millions (if not billions), there's no turning back now. Oh & for all their qualifications & experience, CERN itself has admitted that they do not know exactly what will happen, they can speculate & make many calculations which might actually turn out to be accurate. Remember, it's called an experiment for a reason.
Wagner can also speculate :wink: I trust the people at Cern because they will be at ground zero, and nothing is a better guarantee than peoples own interest in their self preservation. It is the supreme level of selfishness :wink: I'm more than Certain that if these guys new better they would be as far away as possible.

Besides i know a few physicists not working on the project, with far higher qualifcations(Doctorates) than Wagner. One of them used to work at Itemba Labs at Wits, and given this guy's interest in the planet, I'm reasonably certian I would have heard Bad news from him if there was any. :)

Now you've just made me all the more curious, lay it on the table, I can take whatever you can dish out
I think this planet would be far better off if we started bumping off some of the dumber people. :P


----


So ya, you have my reasoning as to why I don't think this collider poses no threat. Some of my reasoning may be flawed, I'll accpet that. :wink:
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by Abatis »

What does man fear most? That no one will understand him, or that someone truly might?
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by Prime »

WTF! How can it be cooled with a transformer :? Electrical transformer? :?
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by Nuke »

Guess the transformer is just the PSU for the cooling system.
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by Prime »

Nuke wrote:Guess the transformer is just the PSU for the cooling system.

Yes i am thinking that. I think the writer of that article needs a :smack: :roll:
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by Nuke »

We always said "n' goeie begryper het 'n halwe woord nodig" :wink:
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by Prime »

er? ok, i don't understand (my afrikaans sucks :oops: ) :wink:

But i did a quick google search and most of the articles sound sketchy, filled with the usual media ignorance. :roll:
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by Prime »

Basically it would seem a power transformer responsible for the cooling system, malfunctioned.

And now all the doom sayers will crawl back out of the wood work. :roll:
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by Nuke »

It means something in the like of "if you are quick to understand, you only need half a word"

Hmpf...don't get me started on the media...
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by WiK1d »

Here's an article stating something different, and it's more informative
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by Prime »

Nuke wrote:It means something in the like of "if you are quick to understand, you only need half a word"

Hmpf...don't get me started on the media...

Lol :lol: Don't get me started either :wink:
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Re: Large Hadron Collider (LHC) Tests

Post by Prime »

WiK1d wrote:Here's an article stating something different, and it's more informative

Oh Fack. Another Delay :(
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