Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

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Prime
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by Prime »

-Prometheus- wrote:
Prime wrote:Hey, if you can worship a god with no proof he exists, why can't I worship the teapot orbiting jupiter. You have no proof there isn't one. :wink:
Did you miss the part where I was using it to illustrate the flaw in your argument? If you make the claim that I have to refute evolution with evidence I can claim that you have to refute God's existence with evidence and only be applying your standards to my argument. Your stance is not a fair one and your counter-counter-fallacy only illustrates this further. You can worship you teapot if you want, I really don't care. :P
Wow, you can't spot Irony when the metaphorical teapot clobbers you in the face. :lol:

I'll wait to see how you respond to Anakha's post before I decide whether to continue in this thread.
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by -Prometheus- »

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Last edited by -Prometheus- on 04 Apr 2011, 04:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by Anakha56 »

Anakha, perhaps you haven't been following this too well but in another thread I have indeed said that how a person chooses to interpret the evidence is based on what that person wants to believe and already believes. Now before I go on, know that I have already provided evidence here. The flaw is that one side assumes neutral evidence belongs to them so they ignore my evidence very much the same as they claim I just ignore theirs.
I am only talking about this thread. I agree with you regards to interpretation different people will have different interpretations but if it works within the definition of the word then the one who says otherwise must accept that they are wrong. I see the problem that your side has, we have multiple sources and evidence to support our case yet when we ask the same for Creationist's what do we get? Where are the multiple tests carried out by multiple parties all getting the same conclusion? Neutral evidence belongs to all however if you want to use it then as I have said above it must be backed up by other sources. This is how the logic works, evolution is a theory not a fact however the theory has a lot of credible evidence vs creationism that (from what I can Google) has very little in the way of evidence. So I ask you, as someone who wants to further their knowledge, what is your evidence of creation? And as a side question, are you a full on supporter of creation or do you support the idea of a blend between creation and evolution? I lean toward evolution myself because I can get sources with different tests that end up with the same result.
You say I have refuted examples with word play. I deny that. I have pointed out that interchangeably using words with different meanings amounts to a fallacy, something which they would do themselves. That was ONE example and if you check you will see that I also refuted it by pointing out that mutations don't prove an organism can evolve from a bacteria to a professor AND by providing counter evidence. I have already asked this: show me which evidence I simply ignored between all the ad hominems and attacks. This must be evidence and not whole subjects.
Point taken. I will leave it to Riax to provide the answer for the bacteria one since he has way more knowledge than myself. As a point of agreeing with you, you have taken a lot of undue flak and I commend you for staying in the "fight".
Creationism does not stand up to scrutiny either? Well let's see, my position is that the argument for evolution is just as weak and relies as much on faith. So the pot calling the kettle black in this case is more like the pot calling the kettle just as black as he is because the kettle refuses to come to that conclusion himself.
You see here you get it wrong. Evolution does not rely on faith, we rely on our physical evidence to support the theory. Until we get something that either A: Conclusively proves evolution or B: Disapproves it it shall remain a theory. Our fossil history points and leads up to many changes to get to our "final" stage. How does Creationism explain the fossils? What is your take on the dinosaur fossils? How do they fit into the puzzle? Evolution can explain through a timeline the majority of events that have occurred however how does Creationism explain the events? Are you a young earth creationist?
The evolutionist makes the unfair demand that something must be disproven with evidence but point this out as a fallacy when someone else makes that demand. Here is the dilemma. By believing that life wasn't created the evolutionist erroneously includes creation in the argument and believes that creation, and by inference God, is being proven by attacking evolution. The fact is that there doesn't have to be just one alternative or even an alternative. The argument for evolution is rightly being attacked to make it weaker and during the course the same evidence is used to strengthen the argument for creation but that does not infer who the creator is.
As far as I am aware, I would prefer to have something proven with evidence rather than have it disproven. The goal is for your side (and ours) to provide enough evidence to prove that they are correct. When that happens it will disprove the other side by default. I am having a hard time understanding what you mean by the evolutionist attacking evolution, it does not add up :?. If I am not mistaken the case for evolution has grown stronger with every decade, I have not seen any evolutionary evidence supporting creationism. Can you give me a few examples please?
The evolutionist is the one who is blind to the errors and weaknesses of his own argument in contrast to the person who merely believes the evolution argument more but can see and admit the flaws.
For this I would like to ask, where are we blind to our own errors and weaknesses? Please show us so that we can attempt to make the understanding better and to correct our errors. One cannot learn without criticism.
And finally what is wrong with Kent Hovind? He is just as credible as any proponent of evolution.
Really? Read this: http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/ba ... thesis.htm The man is not credible when his own work does not add up.

Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind#Science and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind#Creationism

Yes it is wiki but it has sources to back up what is written. The mere fact that other Young Earth Creationist do not support his theory makes me nervous to accept him.

Read this also:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html
A large part of the reason why Creationist arguments against evolution can sound so persuasive is because they don't address evolution, but rather argue against a set of misunderstandings that people are right to consider ludicrous. The Creationists wrongly believe that their understanding of evolution is what the theory of evolution really says, and declare evolution banished. In fact, they haven't even addressed the topic of evolution. (The situation isn't helped by poor science education generally. Even most beginning college biology students don't understand the theory of evolution.)

The five propositions below seem to be the most common misconceptions based on a Creationist straw-man version of evolution. If you hear anyone making any of them, chances are excellent that they don't know enough about the real theory of evolution to make informed opinions about it.
Evolution has never been observed.
Evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
There are no transitional fossils.
The theory of evolution says that life originated, and evolution proceeds, by random chance.
Evolution is only a theory; it hasn't been proved.
Explanations of why these statements are wrong are given below. They are brief and therefore somewhat simplified; consult the references at the end for more thorough expla

"Evolution has never been observed."

Biologists define evolution as a change in the gene pool of a population over time. One example is insects developing a resistance to pesticides over the period of a few years. Even most Creationists recognize that evolution at this level is a fact. What they don't appreciate is that this rate of evolution is all that is required to produce the diversity of all living things from a common ancestor.

The origin of new species by evolution has also been observed, both in the laboratory and in the wild. See, for example, (Weinberg, J.R., V.R. Starczak, and D. Jorg, 1992, "Evidence for rapid speciation following a founder event in the laboratory." Evolution 46: 1214-1220). The "Observed Instances of Speciation" FAQ in the talk.origins archives gives several additional examples.

Even without these direct observations, it would be wrong to say that evolution hasn't been observed. Evidence isn't limited to seeing something happen before your eyes. Evolution makes predictions about what we would expect to see in the fossil record, comparative anatomy, genetic sequences, geographical distribution of species, etc., and these predictions have been verified many times over. The number of observations supporting evolution is overwhelming.

What hasn't been observed is one animal abruptly changing into a radically different one, such as a frog changing into a cow. This is not a problem for evolution because evolution doesn't propose occurrences even remotely like that. In fact, if we ever observed a frog turn into a cow, it would be very strong evidence against evolution.
I struggle with debates to correctly use the words to get my point across so please bear with me. In saying that I would really like to see, even if you have to copy n paste from another thread, your evidence/views on why creation is the right way. I probably missed it but for the sake of this thread and for this debate to continue both sides need to show their cards as it were.

/really wish I had my old job because then I could debate with you but between day shift and night shift I have little or no time as it is. Started typing this out straight after you posted and look at how long it has taken me to respond...
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by RiaX »

-Prometheus- wrote:
RiaX wrote:sigh im going to apply prometheus tactics.

"Nope you wrong"
Giving up so soon. I know evolution can't stand up to scrutiny but I didn't expect THAT.
here is the problem, you seeing this as a competition...

ok so let me get this straight you refute the bacterium claim, knowing the definition of evolution, which basically states improvement due to natural selection, adaptation and genetic recombination/mutation. The bacterium are doing all three fundamentals that define evolution, now you are refuting it because they havent evolved into multicellular organisms yet?

Well now thats like looking at blue paint and denying its blue until you confirm the dye used, however i wont answer that question because it has no answer YET (that i know of). If that question had an answer then you wouldnt have a theory of evolution we would have a FACT. The point of the matter is, bacterium show microevolution whether you like it or not, macro evolution is difficult to prove. So before i jump into answering this question i will have to do some reading, im afriad im hitting the limits of my general knowledge here :(

I have opinions on the matter but i will not share them at this point in time. However i will say this, evolution is an on going process, but nobody ever said it doesnt stop (look into dinosaurs for this). Another aspect you need to keep in mind is that evolution is an extremely slow process.

Microevolution can occur has quick as 40 hours, so you miss your antibiotics you screwed if you got something lethal. However this isnt cast in stone, it depends on the organism. Take viruses for example they also undergo microevolution and this is best seen in the influenza strains and now recent HIV strains but some viruses dont do this because of their method of replicating (DNA vs RNA vs Retro). My final point i would like to add to this, the reason i used bacteria and not viruses is because a bacterium is a living thing, a viron on the other hand is still in a grey area.

Macro evolution takes MILLIONS of years, so even though the bacterium are reproducing exponentially, the time taken to see a change of that magnitude would take very long, like filling an ocean with a pipet. Also in our time frame we wouldnt be able to simulate climate changes to mimic say 100 million years.

But why is it so hard to believe? i mean your entire body was made from 1 dividing cell (technically 2 gamates but each one contained half the dna profile required so after fusion you have 1 cell basically), but as an adult look how many different types of tissue there is in your body and each cell, from blood cells to white cells to skins cells to brains cells to cardiac cells are extremely diverse and different. Just like the life on planet earth :wink:
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by KALSTER »

I think we might have missed a trick here guys. Prometheus might just be the ultimate troll. His claims and blurts of idiocy are just too crazy to be true. After all, how can anyone say Kent Hovind is as credible as evolution scientists and bring up every creationist fallacy, including the DNA new information monstrosity of an IDiot claim, and still be able to use a computer or type understandably? No, he must be a troll!
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by -Prometheus- »

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Last edited by -Prometheus- on 04 Apr 2011, 04:51, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by -Prometheus- »

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Last edited by -Prometheus- on 04 Apr 2011, 04:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by RiaX »

That's just it, you are assuming that because they are both biological they are they same. They are NOT. There are big differences between a bacterium and a much more complex collection of cells like even a flee. I can just as well claim that my computer can morph into the terminator because they are both made of silicon.
So tell me whats the difference?

keep in mind i got honors in this field

I can also apply your logic back to you, you ASSUME that they are not the same
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by JollyJamma »

-Prometheus- your new nick name is 'Bullet dodger'. Seriously you go all out to avoid things that could nullify your argument.
I no longer think of myself as Atheist however I reject religion as a concept where you must do x because someone says so. May contain nuts.
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by RiaX »

now now all though his arguement is as tight as a sieve, let not bring ourselves to that level
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by JollyJamma »

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I no longer think of myself as Atheist however I reject religion as a concept where you must do x because someone says so. May contain nuts.
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by RiaX »

he stole my words ! "slave of the cloth"
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by -Prometheus- »

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Last edited by -Prometheus- on 04 Apr 2011, 20:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by JollyJamma »

Ok I can see you don't like arguing with anyone. Don't worry, you don't have too if you don't want too.
[img]Enjoy%20your%20lives,%20if%20you%20can%20with%20those%20attitudes%20of%20yours.[/img]
Can and will do.
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by Prime »

-Prometheus- wrote:Now JJ, you can say whatever you want. You have clearly not taken to heart what Anakha has said to you. So you, Prime, Rusty, Kalster, and RiaX can continue with your attacks and ridicule against me and others while the mods and admins do nothing to enforce the rules. Just know that while you do that nobody takes you seriously except for yourselfs and I will no longer be a part of what you call debate. As Anakha has pointed out I have taken a lot of undue flak from you people but I will not be staying in this fight. I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt but I can once again see the usual culprits. Thank you guys for once again confirming to me that your theory is crap and affirming my belief in God and His creation.

I have already requested for my posts and account to be removed. So cheers I will be moving on now as soon as that happens. Enjoy your lives, if you can with those attitudes of yours.
right...

This coming from the guy who couldn't substantiate a single post. I'm still waiting for a reference :?

If you took the time to get to know the people on this forum, you'd actually realise we're a friendly well meaning bunch.

moving right along...

edit:

Levels of overreaction:
  • Pulling an Urban
    Pulling an MT
    Pulling a Prometheus
:lol:
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by Synthesis »

In turn man lose his brute physical structure, since he does not need it anymore, becoming more and more into the form we are now. Studies show that the changes that happens inside our body is not the introduction of new genetic code but it is the restructuring of old genetic codes to suit the need. So in short, we are still what we were before in the beginning. So therefore evolution is a part of creation. It is God's way of improving us.
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by Prime »

Synthesis wrote:In turn man lose his brute physical structure, since he does not need it anymore, becoming more and more into the form we are now. Studies show that the changes that happens inside our body is not the introduction of new genetic code but it is the restructuring of old genetic codes to suit the need. So in short, we are still what we were before in the beginning. So therefore evolution is a part of creation. It is God's way of improving us.
Reference so we can read up on it - not necessarily to the creation part but the genetics thing?
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by Synthesis »

Sorry, I meant post the link. just a wiki article that I enjoyed reading because it sums up my thoughts. To me even evolution is God's way of creating man.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_proof_is ... _evolution
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by Prime »

Synthesis wrote:Sorry, I meant post the link. just a wiki article that I enjoyed reading because it sums up my thoughts. To me even evolution is God's way of creating man.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_proof_is ... _evolution
Thanks. Will go read it.

Actually the last answer intrigued me. I'd be curious to see what the Torah says of genesis. Now who to ask. :scratch:
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by RiaX »

well bye bye prometheus, if you going to shut your eyes to everything so be it.

However why should the admins and mods carry out disciplinary action on us for doubting your shady arguement?

See synthesis has made a post and its supported, something you have failed to do this entire time. Secondly i wish you good luck and hope your faith is strong cause if this is your attitude when things arent going your way, you sir are going to need a lot of god's help ;)
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by KALSTER »

-Prometheus- wrote:I have already requested for my posts and account to be removed. So cheers I will be moving on now as soon as that happens. Enjoy your lives, if you can with those attitudes of yours.
Well that's great Prometheus, you do that. There was never going to be any headway in any case. There never are. I bowed out at the beginning, had a change of heart and then just very quickly got tired of it. I get very disheartened and frustrated by the kinds of regurgitated claims that are thrown about as you have done; a prime example being the "new information problem of evolution", which is not a problem at all. In fact, the refutation is so obvious that I seriously doubt that anyone who holds to it has any kind of clue of what they are talking about.

The huge implications, sheer irony and absolute frivolity of the bulk of humanity being completely enamoured, engulfed and influenced by the accounts of non-existent gods interacting with and steering humanity is mind boggling to me.

I never really understood why evolution could not be a tool of God's, unless you take the Bible as inerrant, in which case you are seriously intellectually compromised already. For some reason the word "evolution" is a swear word among many theists. They'd call it anything, as long as it is not evolution, even when there is no distinction to be made from what is being described. Before losing my religion, I always thought that a God making the laws of the universe in such a precise way that humans would one day result on a planet somewhere is a much more impressive feat by many orders of magnitude than a God that continually tinkered for billions of years or just poofed us all into existence, complete with information all over the place deliberately designed to deceive us.

I'm afraid you have no understanding about my attitude towards life and the universe, even as we know very little about yours. Not for a lack of asking though. As I said, I am very interested in how people arrive at their world views and would seriously have loved to discuss that with you (I have done so fairly cordially with others with far weirder beliefs than yours in the past). You seem to be stuck in a kind of limbo in terms of what the facts are and what they say, even though some of them would challenge your apparent world view. You are pretty sure about your premise that a god exists and created you and the world and you appear to have, quite stereotypically, been swallowing a lot of nonsense from that camp, hiding behind "we can't know for sure" for those points that oppose it, while giving near equal credence to points of view with highly unbalanced levels of evidentiary, logical and experimental support just to keep the intellectual charade going. I am sure you even think that it is a responsible and reasonable position to take, but I disagree of course.

I am only interested in truth and not just in the kinds that would reinforce my world view, as an honest interest in the world around me has in fact lead me to a new one in the first place. Whether you believe this or not is of course of little importance. Fare ye well.
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by hamin_aus »

-Prometheus- wrote:So you, Prime, Rusty, Kalster, and RiaX
Not even an honorary mention for me :?:
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by jee »

-Prometheus- wrote:Now JJ, you can say whatever you want. You have clearly not taken to heart what Anakha has said to you. So you, Prime, Rusty, Kalster, and RiaX can continue with your attacks and ridicule against me and others while the mods and admins do nothing to enforce the rules. Just know that while you do that nobody takes you seriously except for yourselfs and I will no longer be a part of what you call debate. As Anakha has pointed out I have taken a lot of undue flak from you people but I will not be staying in this fight. I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt but I can once again see the usual culprits. Thank you guys for once again confirming to me that your theory is crap and affirming my belief in God and His creation.

I have already requested for my posts and account to be removed. So cheers I will be moving on now as soon as that happens. Enjoy your lives, if you can with those attitudes of yours.

A healthy debate is one where everyone can be free to believe what works for THEM.
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by JollyJamma »

RiaX wrote:well bye bye prometheus, if you going to shut your eyes to everything so be it.

However why should the admins and mods carry out disciplinary action on us for doubting your shady argument?

See synthesis has made a post and its supported, something you have failed to do this entire time. Secondly i wish you good luck and hope your faith is strong cause if this is your attitude when things arent going your way, you sir are going to need a lot of god's help ;)
Har Har

On a side note, we are all open to someone elses opinion. My view on the world will change but only when someone can clearly prove something without doubt. I subscribe to evolution because it makes sense and it has it's flaws (One day we will see 3 Billion years of evolution happen in front of our eyes with a primate of some kind in a lab) but it's a true theory at the end of the day. If you choose to ignore it that's just blinded opinion which you can live with for ages if you live in the dark.

It's funny how science doesn't seek to destroy religion or it's beliefs but just happens to. Most scientists hate the very thought of interfering with another persons life but they feel the need for answers and to push what we know.
I no longer think of myself as Atheist however I reject religion as a concept where you must do x because someone says so. May contain nuts.
RiaX
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Joined: 23 Jun 2006, 02:00
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Re: Creation & Evolution OFFICIAL DEBATE

Post by RiaX »

@ kalster thats a very good way of looking at it

personally i believe all religion is lies, a means of mass control but perhaps the idea of which we percieve god is incorrect maybe 'god' is an entity that can act outside the laws of physics and break the most fundamental law, first law of thermodynamics. All the energy for the universe had to come from somewhere ?

grounds for agnostic perhaps?
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