Piracy article in June issue

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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Bladerunner »

doo_much wrote:Lemmetjie you are in the wrong on both legal and moral grounds. Give it up.
Depends how YOU define your morals. :wink: There is no "normal" and therefore no specific moral ground.

Information is not an object. It is not stealing.

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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by StarBound »

If its a question about morals then maybe its that it all began with copy and past functions. Duplicating 0 and 1 to give an end result that someone fell beyond the boundaries of going outside and smashing in someones skull to take his money. In this digital world we just click, copy, paste, and its instant duplicate. No violent act from it and perhapes that is the biggest problem about digital theft. No one bleeds, no one LOOSES the money they have, no one dies.

All these pirated figures are posts as LOSS OF SALES. As you said 90% of pirates wont buy the game anyway. The long term effect is there that it's less money that you would have gotten if everyone just paid for it. If everyone just paid you for doing your JOB then everyone would be happy chappy. But what is the penalty for doing a crappy job then? I dont think if the game is absolute rubbish that anyone would even bother copying it but I can be wrong.

So maybe we should change the mind set rather than changing the definitions. Developers could also give us more than a pink slip with a code on though.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Monty »

bladerunner, if you support piracy so much, then you wouldn't mind give every pcf user a copy of all the source code and the full programs you've worked on?
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by D3PART3D »

Bladerunner wrote:But WOULD Johnny really have bought the game? Or would he just have had the delicious steak anyway?
Forget Johnny, you've missed the point. I'd suspect trolling, but I think you're just trying to rationalize this away so that you don't have to feel guilty :P Are you denying that game devs lose money because there are cracks for their games?
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

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Monty wrote:bladerunner, if you support piracy so much, then you wouldn't mind give every pcf user a copy of all the source code and the full programs you've worked on?
I do that with all my programs. :wink: (No seriously, if you find any program of me you like, just ask me for the source code and you'll get it.)

As for the programming I do for my boss; that much I can't give you, since I'll get fired (or until I get fired I can't give you that). :P
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Bladerunner »

D3PART3D wrote:
Bladerunner wrote:But WOULD Johnny really have bought the game? Or would he just have had the delicious steak anyway?
Forget Johnny, you've missed the point. I'd suspect trolling, but I think you're just trying to rationalize this away so that you don't have to feel guilty :P Are you denying that game devs lose money because there are cracks for their games?
No I'm not trolling. And I promise you I've never lost a wink of sleep because I pirate stuff :lol: :lol:

And yes, in essence I am saying the figures of "losses due to piracy" are hugely exagerrated and most pirates wouldn't buy the game even if they couldn't crack it. Therefore very little loss of revenue.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

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StarBound wrote:Why pay for something that is free? Well no one can argue with that. So if you want to justify prices then where is my full colour manual? Where is my hologrammed disc with the developer or publishers name on the disc? Where is my extras like for instance DLC codes that came with the disc and box? The only games I could ever justify the price was Blizzards games because the manuals was awesome and if you looked at the Collectors Edition content it makes everyone else look CHEAP bottom.
Maybe because you actually recognise and appreciate the effort? Because it encourages the person to keep putting effort into their project. Just because it's free, doesn't mean its not costing money and time to produce.
StarBound wrote:let's try it from another perspective. Piracy is there. It happens when you add fuel to the flame by cutting down on extras, increases price and add rediculous means to play your games. R300/$40 to R400/$60 a game and all you get is a box with a disc and a pamflet inside saying download content from Steam. I mean seriously WTF. Your trying to convince people not to take the digital only format and then you throw something like that at them? If you take all those digital downloads that were pirated pc version of MW2 then does it say go digital or does it say go disc version and give something extra? Even with 4.1mil pirated copies downloaded my question would be is IWnet really that bad that players who got the game in others ways than buying it allowed them to play online ON IWNET with OTHER PLAYERS?
I can't comment on MW2 because I don't play it, I hate the COD franchise. You see steam as a hassle, for many of us, steam is a godsend. It keeps games up to date, it keeps settings synchronised, it allows you to link up with your fellow players and organise a game. The install files are actually on the disk so you are only downloading updates if you install it correctly. And you actually get DLC on Steam. There's a new map for LFD2, Portal was a free download to keep forever for a week. You get insane specials. Instead of bitching and moaning, go buy one those fantastic titles that now cost only $7.

StarBound wrote:I once copied many titles. Infact I believe every NES game I had was some chinese ripoff since I did see the actual NES looked much different. Most of my sega mega drive games were also pal/ntsc game rips except for Sonic 3 and Sonic & knuckles which could save and attach. playstation games? Chipped and R150 from the local telegames. Then I got a pc that could play games. We got SIN, Quake 2, Diablo, and others not worth mentioning. Diablo was one of those cases where the game was cracked with no music. The full retailed version with music and movies was to die for. Quake 2 eventually became an addition to our gaming collection as we played it over and over. SIN got the boot after getting stuck on the load screen and a level later on. Half life was a copied cd from someone I knew that we just had to have a few years later down the line. Unreal Tournament came in an oh so shiney box that I simply couldnt resist buying it and it still have a place on the shelf next to my PC even this day. Point is I was a poor bottom back then with a system that could bearly play games and when we played a game constantly we just bought the thing instead of borrowing other copies.

The PS2, PS3, Xbox 360 and Wii hasnt seen a mod chip or copied game ever. Mainly because I can afford games now (I hate my job but I love getting paid) plus the BTGames bargin bin and platinum titles makes it easier to afford them if I cant get them 2nd hand online. This brings us to the next part.

Second Hand games on consoles where you need to buy the DLC again.


I also sat with an awful PC for years. Only recently do I have a moderately decent rig. Saving and bargain hunting and debt avoidance are a skills that every person needs to learn. I had to save or budget for most of my titles. If I was lucky, I found them in a bargain bin or got lucky with a set of second hand titles. I am by no means flush with cash - Full time engineering student here. I'm trying to legalise my music collection now and thats just as expensive.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Bladerunner »

Prime wrote: I can't comment on MW2 because I don't play it, I hate the COD franchise. You see steam as a hassle, for many of us, steam is a godsend. It keeps games up to date, it keeps settings synchronised, it allows you to link up with your fellow players and organise a game. The install files are actually on the disk so you are only downloading updates if you install it correctly. And you actually get DLC on Steam. There's a new map for LFD2, Portal was a free download to keep forever for a week. You get insane specials. Instead of bitching and moaning, go buy one those fantastic titles that now cost only $7.

Steam is a godsend for people with uncapped, 1mbps minimum broadband connections. For the rest of us it's a huge pain and we'd be better off without it.

None of my Valve games require steam *cough* and I've never enjoyed the games any less than other people. I experienced all the fun they did.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Prime »

Bladerunner wrote:
Prime wrote: No, despite what you would like to think, not everyone on the planet has no morals or ethics like you or your friends, and honestly, it will come back to bite you. I don't have to hope, I know it will.

Sitting on my shelf are over 40 titles of games I have bought over the years, and the 3 odd games that I don't have a legitimate version of, I would buy in a heartbeat if I could find an original.

Poeple don't just sit and develop cracks so that you can pirate games. I can think of several cracks that the developers didn't create for piracy. The Sacred: Fallen Angel crack has a Notice that states that the purpose of the crack is intended only to allow the game to be run offline and not for piracy. Have you noticed how many of these crackers you are defending write trojans into their programs?

And I still don't see a source for your figures.
1. You are taking this argument to a personal level by insinuating I have no morals or ethics. Personal attacks in a debate indicates a lack of maturity.
I wouldn't go pointing fingers at other people over maturity. Until you provide me with a legitimate reason to mercilessly pirate everyone's music and software and everything, I will stand by my statement that you have no morals or ethics. (Hint: Note the word merciless. And if money is your answer, learn some life skills) (No, I don't want this to get into a personal attack). That you do it indiscriminately, is the reason I state that I don't believe you have morals or ethics. As I said, prove me wrong and I will with draw my statement.
Bladerunner wrote:2. You have named one game (one which I've never even heard of) where the developers created a no-cd crack for the legit users. [Respect btw, I might actually consider buying this game just because they did that.]
If you had gone into a shop and bought a title, you would have seen it sitting on the shelf :P But the rest of your statement makes no sense. So you'll buy a game because someone cracked it for a legitimate reason and pirate a game becuase they didn't? Explain this logic
Bladerunner wrote:3. There are many reputable crackers out there, if a script kiddie attaches a virus or trojan to a crack, don't blame the guys who had the brains to actually crack it.
If they are reputable, why are they cracking games to aid piracy, rather than the legitimate owners of games?
Bladerunner wrote:4. Can you give a source which proves my estimation wrong?
[/quote]

No, you quote a figure, you give a source. That is good debating.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

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Bladerunner wrote:And yes, in essence I am saying the figures of "losses due to piracy" are hugely exagerrated and most pirates wouldn't buy the game even if they couldn't crack it. Therefore very little loss of revenue.
Okay then. I see. I'm going to branch this out now.

Firstly, you don't think piracy is wrong simply because it isn't harming anyone. You don't mind that John Carmack lost R20 because you developed a crack. He isn't going to have a drastic change in his standard of living because of you. I would reply that you are wrong in principle. I don't care if it was five cents, it was my damn five cents. What gives you the right?

Secondly, let's say you kept these cracks all to yourself, and since you are the only person pirating, and since you were really not going to buy the games anyway (I'm quite sure you'd buy a few games if you had no other choice, btw. But anyhow.) John Carmack doesn't lose a cent... I have difficulty seeing how I could consider that morally wrong. Like Prime says, your money is a reward to those who produce, and their motivation to continue doing so. But that has to be volitional, except of course if you've previously agreed to some sort of social contract. By living in S.A. you have. So you're still wrong. :P
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

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Bladerunner wrote:
Prime wrote: I can't comment on MW2 because I don't play it, I hate the COD franchise. You see steam as a hassle, for many of us, steam is a godsend. It keeps games up to date, it keeps settings synchronised, it allows you to link up with your fellow players and organise a game. The install files are actually on the disk so you are only downloading updates if you install it correctly. And you actually get DLC on Steam. There's a new map for LFD2, Portal was a free download to keep forever for a week. You get insane specials. Instead of bitching and moaning, go buy one those fantastic titles that now cost only $7.

Steam is a godsend for people with uncapped, 1mbps minimum broadband connections. For the rest of us it's a huge pain and we'd be better off without it.

None of my Valve games require steam *cough* and I've never enjoyed the games any less than other people. I experienced all the fun they did.
I downloaded half my steam titles on a 56K modem with 7 rand call on weekends. We got broadband 2 years ago, long after alot of people. Your logic is screwed up, The world can't hold on for backwards countries to catch up, we'd all still be in the dark ages. Steam works fine for the rest of the world. You can't blame steam if its not friendly for south africa or some other hell hole.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by D3PART3D »

Yup, gaming is a privilege, not a right.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Bladerunner »

Prime wrote: 1. I wouldn't go pointing fingers at other people over maturity. Until you provide me with a legitimate reason to mercilessly pirate everyone's music and software and everything, I will stand by my statement that you have no morals or ethics. (Hint: Note the word merciless. And if money is your answer, learn some life skills) (No, I don't want this to get into a personal attack). That you do it indiscriminately, is the reason I state that I don't believe you have morals or ethics. As I said, prove me wrong and I will with draw my statement.

Money is not the big issue. The big issue is how game companies rip people off who actually buy the games. Note, just because I can afford a game does not mean I am going to fork out half a grand on it. That buys a tank of petrol, a textbook, etc. Legitimate users are treated like thieves with DRM and other crap.

2. If you had gone into a shop and bought a title, you would have seen it sitting on the shelf :P But the rest of your statement makes no sense. So you'll buy a game because someone cracked it for a legitimate reason and pirate a game becuase they didn't? Explain this logic

The only reason I would buy this is to show a little support for their decency. I do not buy games to be pestered with DRM. I don't want to be pestered with steam and updates and verification of cd-keys online. If I buy a game it's because I want to play the bloody thing. Period. Btw, I regularly go to a game shops to see what's new. ;)

3. If they are reputable, why are they cracking games to aid piracy, rather than the legitimate owners of games?

Once again you are of the opinion that crackers are people of a bad reputation. However I see your viewpoint. I am labelling professional crackers as reputable, script kiddies who attach viruses are not.

4. No, you quote a figure, you give a source. That is good debating.

Once again I see your point. But as aforementioned, it is my estimation based on personal experience. If you can prove me wrong, please do.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Prime »

Prime wrote:
Bladerunner wrote:
Prime wrote: No, despite what you would like to think, not everyone on the planet has no morals or ethics like you or your friends, and honestly, it will come back to bite you. I don't have to hope, I know it will.

Sitting on my shelf are over 40 titles of games I have bought over the years, and the 3 odd games that I don't have a legitimate version of, I would buy in a heartbeat if I could find an original.

Poeple don't just sit and develop cracks so that you can pirate games. I can think of several cracks that the developers didn't create for piracy. The Sacred: Fallen Angel crack has a Notice that states that the purpose of the crack is intended only to allow the game to be run offline and not for piracy. Have you noticed how many of these crackers you are defending write trojans into their programs?

And I still don't see a source for your figures.
1. You are taking this argument to a personal level by insinuating I have no morals or ethics. Personal attacks in a debate indicates a lack of maturity.
I wouldn't go pointing fingers at other people over maturity. Until you provide me with a legitimate reason to mercilessly pirate everyone's music and software and everything, I will stand by my statement that you have no morals or ethics. (Hint: Note the word merciless. And if money is your answer, learn some life skills) (No, I don't want this to get into a personal attack). That you do it indiscriminately, is the reason I state that I don't believe you have morals or ethics. As I said, prove me wrong and I will with draw my statement.
Let me add something here. If you say pirated a piece of software because you needed to simply do one thing and weren't making money out of what you were doing, I could kind of understand where you were coming from. Its still not right or legal, but I could see where you are coming from. That is pirating stuff discriminatingly.
but you stated yourself that you pirate everything. This means the stuff you only used once and the stuff you use everyday.

If you had a serious issue with my accusation of you having no morals or ethics, PM me.
Last edited by Prime on 24 May 2010, 22:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by StarBound »

I think the point is missed. If you cant afford it dont buy it. But this is the digital industry and its unbelievably easy to make a duplicate.

Like prime said its the thing about having and owning it that drives us. Thats why I dont support drm games although I have turned my head a slight bit about steam for titles like torchlight. But steam will have the cost of getting it to my drive based on telkoms pricing. Still it comes down to are you saticefied with the product as is? My answer in many cases are no. I have the disc. But I cant play the game because after paying for it the developer wants me to go download or push in extra costs so I can play the game. Thats why I am so againt DRM in the first place. It no longer contains party X and Y. You need the middle man Z to be able to play it.

The ONLY exceptions I have to this rule is multiplayer games and then only the multiplayer aspect. BFBC2. I activated online because thats all I was gonna do with it. World of Warcraft, my dagga, my dope, my tik, its an online only game so no point in trying anything else. Starcraft 2 I hope that it only is a online thing once you play battle.net but with the state of things we might see a paid service for it. And thats perhapes the biggest legacy of WoW namely DLC.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Prime »

Bladerunner wrote:Money is not the big issue. The big issue is how game companies rip people off who actually buy the games. Note, just because I can afford a game does not mean I am going to fork out half a grand on it. That buys a tank of petrol, a textbook, etc. Legitimate users are treated like thieves with DRM and other crap.
As Departed said, its a luxury. Wait a few months and you won't be looking for a blackmarket buyer for your kidneys. Unfortuantely, what ever drove the price up and what ever we think of it, piracy does not bring it down. And when publishers see poor sales figures, they keep the prices high to recoup the costs as fast as possible. Time is money, the longer they take to recoup their development costs, the more interest they pay on the capital borrowed to produce a game.
Bladerunner wrote:The only reason I would buy this is to show a little support for their decency. I do not buy games to be pestered with DRM. I don't want to be pestered with steam and updates and verification of cd-keys online. If I buy a game it's because I want to play the bloody thing. Period. Btw, I regularly go to a game shops to see what's new. ;)
I don't doubt the prices are higher than everyone would like but DRM is not that intrusive. There are also economic factos that jack game prices up, the oil price being one of them. If you are not prepared to live with the way a software devloper implements their software, by all means, don't buy it. But don't pirate it either. You are still stealing money from them. And if you feel that it impinges so strongly on your rights, there is a due legal process to challenge them.

Edit: and I'll retract my statement, you may indeed have some ethics and morals :P
Bladerunner wrote:Once again you are of the opinion that crackers are people of a bad reputation. However I see your viewpoint. I am labelling professional crackers as reputable, script kiddies who attach viruses are not.
Not all professional crackers are reputable. There are plenty enough who get paid to write spyware, and malware, viruses and trojans. There was an article posted by doo recently. It talked about a company that made a fortune selling malware under the guise of antimalware software and using it to steal personal information. Professional /= reputable.
Bladerunner wrote:Once again I see your point. But as aforementioned, it is my estimation based on personal experience. If you can prove me wrong, please do.
I thought so. Now one of us might be prepared to go googling. I unfortunately need to do 2 chapters of stats. So It will have to wait. :(
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by DAE_JA_VOO »

Bladerunner wrote:
DAE_JA_VOO wrote:
Bladerunner wrote:and they have the nerve to call it "stealing". It's not stealing. It's copying.
I'd like to see you say that when you've spent millions of dollars and months of development on a game and then have someone not pay for it.

Catch a wake up. Copying something like a game or music IS theft.
No. If i take a pair of shoes from a store without paying, that is theft. If I make a replica of those shoes, it isn't.
Alright. So let's say Infinity ward spends a year developing a game, and spends millions of dollars developing said game. The know that when that game starts selling, they'll make their money back, right? Right.

So, they finish the game, and put it on the shelves and expect every person who wants to play the game, to pay for it. Fair enough. So if 10 guys buy play the game, that's R3500 the development company gets.

Now, if 1 guy BUYS it, and then copies it for his other 9 friends, the developer LOSES those 9 other customers, and in turn, loses out on the R3150 they WOULD have gotten, if you didn't copy it for your buddies. That means that your copying has COST THE DEVELOPER R3150. Hence: You've stolen.

No matter how you try to justify it, Piracy is theft. The end.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Moses »

You're making the assumption that everyone who receives a pirated copy of a game would have bought the original, were they not able to pirate. This assumption is absurd.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by RuadRauFlessa »

I have to fully agree with Dae on this one. Moses if you really want a game and you can't pirate it you will buy it eventually. Just one thing Dae.... Say you have a game ons shelf going for R350, the games company won't see anything above 10% of that in any case as that R350 includes publisher fees.... Transport/Shipping .... retailer markup..... It is like cars, The Alfa Romeo MiTo costs around 10 000 punds in the UK... over here it goes for over R245 000..... Now I dare say that 10 000 pounds != R245 000, but then we know it includes stuff like shipping of the vehicle to SA and the insurance Alfa needs to take out on the vehicle to get it here. All in all stuff gets added to the list.. Getting back to that game title... so R350 would roughly translate to about R35 per title sold... Selling 3mil titles would give you what 13.4mil USD The the games company still needs to deduct what it cost them to make the game and/or repay their debts accrued during the process of developing the game. These days you have a 150-200 odd people working on a single title for between 12-18 months. Really insane stuff. Take into account that you can't pay the ppl peanuts as they are basically the top managers,3d developers, AI developers, Interface developers, networking specialists,3d modelers,concept artists,level designers,ands....ands....ands.... in the world you have put in the same room. It takes a lot to make a modern day title and all that takes money... And you may think the costs are over and done with once the game has hit the shelves.... Oooooh Noooo.... Patches..... Updates..... Support.... Live Dedicated online servers for multiplayer ands.... ands.... ands.... Why do you think the developers of Hellgate London kicked the bucket??? Bad management.... Oooh nooo Siiirrr Eeeee High development and maintenance costs coupled with less sales than anticipated creates a big hole while trying to pay back development costs and trying to cover the interest.

YOU WANT TO PIRATE A GAME..... GO STEAL SOMEONE ELSE'S LIVELIHOOD AND NOT MINE... Oh and btw go and read the terms and conditions under which you have any game title you bought off the shelf.... It clearly states that the game remains the ownership of the publishing/development company. You may not even lend it to a friend. You may not resell it second hand... Really do yourself a favor and go check it out. If you copy a game or allow someone to copy a game you have bought then you are breaking a contractual agreement which you entered into when you bought the game. As such you are breaking the law and can be held accountable.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Anakha56 »

Well said Ruad.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Bladerunner »

Moses wrote:You're making the assumption that everyone who receives a pirated copy of a game would have bought the original, were they not able to pirate. This assumption is absurd.
My point exactly. You cannot make these assumptions.
RuadRauFlessa wrote:Oh and btw go and read the terms and conditions under which you have any game title you bought off the shelf.... It clearly states that the game remains the ownership of the publishing/development company.
Yes, you don't even really own your copy of the game. As I've stated before you're just "borrowing" it.
Prime wrote: Edit: and I'll retract my statement, you may indeed have some ethics and morals :P
My point was just because I pirate games and music, I am not a b@stard. What if you knew I was involved in charity work with the poor and homeless? Would you still say I have no moral or ethical values? Would that change your view of the evil b@stard who pirates every damn thing and should be crucified for something which cannot really be defined as stealing in the first place? :P

Piracy is not theft. (Do I need to put the helpful diagram up again?)
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Monty »

Bladerunner wrote:
Moses wrote:You're making the assumption that everyone who receives a pirated copy of a game would have bought the original, were they not able to pirate. This assumption is absurd.
My point exactly. You cannot make these assumptions.
You cannot make the assumption that everyone who pirates games wouldn't buy the game if it was not available to them in a pirated form.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Stuart »

Bladerunner wrote:Piracy is not theft. (Do I need to put the helpful diagram up again?)
You are just redefining things to ease your conscience here.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Anakha56 »

I still not have seen a counter argument for how a developer should make money if everyone pirates their games? That seems to get avoided at all costs I wonder why...
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by hamin_aus »

Because a good troll does not argue facts he excites emotions.
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