Piracy article in June issue

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Piracy article in June issue

Post by StarBound »

I dont know if this deserves to be here or the piracy thread in the chill out forums so move it to where its most appropriate.

Ok firstly the definition. Everyone is talking about the IP (intellectual property) theft when mentioned of piracy. But isnt this wrong? I mean your not stealing the IP. Stealing the IP would be something like EA taking Sonic the hedgehog from Sega and slap him into "Need for Speed Sonic!". Plainly put its theft of a product. Same as a chocolate from a store shelf except I think digital distribution screwed that theory over.

Next is the piracy figures from MW2 during Nov 2009 wasnt it? 300k pc sales vs 4.1 mil pirate downloads. How accurate is that info? How legit is the source? And whats the cause? They lost maybe 1mil in legit sales instantly when they announced "no dedicated servers". But take it further. Eg how many of those 4.1mil did they recover because those that downloaded it figured its worth the price? How many stopped demoing it after a few matches of utter frustration? How many kept on trying to get dedicated servers working on non-keyed product before spending money on a valid key?

I'd love to take these figures to heart and believe but I cant. There is simply too many unaccounted for factors and the only thing ringing true that is only half mentioned is that DRM is chasing people away and my response is simply that if the game is worth buying it will be bought on ps3 where I dictate if I can play it or not.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Bladerunner »

These figures are hugely exagerrated because the poor poor software companies can't afford any more solid gold humvees :P

I've never seen such greedy bastards as the game and music industry in my entire life,
and they have the nerve to call it "stealing". It's not stealing. It's copying.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Mykhal »

+1 Blade!

And if they were willing to make a smaller profit per sale, their sales will increase! Why can't they realise that piracy is a cost/trouble ratio - the cheaper it is to be "legal" the less piracy there will be!
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by DAE_JA_VOO »

Bladerunner wrote:and they have the nerve to call it "stealing". It's not stealing. It's copying.
I'd like to see you say that when you've spent millions of dollars and months of development on a game and then have someone not pay for it.

Catch a wake up. Copying something like a game or music IS theft.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Mykhal »

But Ett. is it morally correct of them to try and recoup all that development costs ASAP? Trust me - as a programmer I DO NOT condone piracy, but I feel the industry is also to blame. I know I must price my product/service so that the customer would rather come to me and buy the legitimate product than going elsewhere!
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Bladerunner »

DAE_JA_VOO wrote:
Bladerunner wrote:and they have the nerve to call it "stealing". It's not stealing. It's copying.
I'd like to see you say that when you've spent millions of dollars and months of development on a game and then have someone not pay for it.

Catch a wake up. Copying something like a game or music IS theft.
No. If i take a pair of shoes from a store without paying, that is theft. If I make a replica of those shoes, it isn't.

And I'm a software developer myself, and do you ever hear me nag and moan like an old woman about piracy? No, quite the contrary.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Monty »

the definition of stealing is taking something that belongs to someone without permission.

By pirating a game you are taking it without the permission of the game developers so you have stolen it.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Bladerunner »

Monty wrote:the definition of stealing is taking something that belongs to someone without permission.

By pirating a game you are taking it without the permission of the game developers so you have stolen it.
I did not take it. I made a replica of it.

Secondly, in large companies like EA, the developers are being paid for their hours clocked with little regard to sales. It's not like they're eating dry pieces of bread every night until you go and buy that game.

If I remove a Game from a shelf in a store, I am depriving someone else of buying it and ONLY THEN is the game company losing revenue.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Monty »

Bladerunner wrote:
Monty wrote:the definition of stealing is taking something that belongs to someone without permission.

By pirating a game you are taking it without the permission of the game developers so you have stolen it.
I did not take it. I made a replica of it.

Secondly, in large companies like EA, the developers are being paid for their hours clocked with little regard to sales. It's not like they're eating dry pieces of bread every night until you go and buy that game.

If I remove a Game from a shelf in a store, I am depriving someone else of buying it and ONLY THEN is the game company losing revenue.
you have obtained a copy of the game without permission (aka illegally). Stealing is obtaining something without permission (aka illegally).
Would you walk in to a book store and scan a book or magazine to your pc but leave the original there?

The game company loses revenue when you copy the game because you haven't bought it.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Bladerunner »

Monty wrote: The game company loses revenue when you copy the game because you haven't bought it.
Common misconception. 90% of pirates would not have bought it if they couldn't pirate it in the first place. So in that sense the company really isn't losing money.

And no I don't scan books or magazines because I prefer having a hard copy. But if you're trying to test my principles: yes I would theoretically do that.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Monty »

Bladerunner wrote:Common misconception. 90% of pirates would not have bought it if they couldn't pirate it in the first place. So in that sense the company really isn't losing money.
Do you have a reputable source for that statement? Or have you just sucked thumb and dropped a number?
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by doo_much »

Monty wrote:
Bladerunner wrote:Common misconception. 90% of pirates would not have bought it if they couldn't pirate it in the first place. So in that sense the company really isn't losing money.
Do you have a reputable source for that statement? Or have you just sucked thumb and dropped a number?

Whilst not condoning software piracy, I belive Blade's statistic is probably as accurate as the ones used by the gaming industry...
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Bladerunner »

Monty wrote:
Bladerunner wrote:Common misconception. 90% of pirates would not have bought it if they couldn't pirate it in the first place. So in that sense the company really isn't losing money.
Do you have a reputable source for that statement? Or have you just sucked thumb and dropped a number?
Why would people spend so many hours (even days or weeks) developing software cracks, and so many people download cracks if they could just go "buy" it? Because they're pirates at heart and won't be buying the game.

I am a pirate, and I know a lot of people overseas and local who are pirates. And we DON'T buy games or music, no matter what. ;) (Now are you going to attack this statement and say: "Oh no hold on a sec, you're friends with a very tiny group of people, and the chances of anyone else having the same kind of friends are highly unlikely" ?)
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Bladerunner »

doo_much wrote:
Monty wrote:
Bladerunner wrote:Common misconception. 90% of pirates would not have bought it if they couldn't pirate it in the first place. So in that sense the company really isn't losing money.
Do you have a reputable source for that statement? Or have you just sucked thumb and dropped a number?

Whilst not condoning software piracy, I belive Blade's statistic is probably as accurate as the ones used by the gaming industry...
No, the gaming industry says 90% of people playing our game have pirated it.

I'm saying: 90% of the people who pirate wouldn't have bought the legal copy anyway.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Anakha56 »

Bladerunner wrote: I did not take it. I made a replica of it.
Actually making a replica is theft, it is theft of IP. The developer owns the distribution rights, name rights and concept rights hell they own the whole friggin IP! By making a copy you are depriving them of a sale which in the digital age is theft.

To use the EA/SEGA example. If EA made a "Need for Speed: Rat" and made the Rat very similar looking to Sonic, spiky hair, lighter shade of blue and instead of collecting rings he collects hoops SEGA can successfully argue in court that their IP is being infringed on. The same applies to a musician who take lyrics from another song without that artist consent and plays that.

By making a copy you are stealing because you have denied the developer a sale and if you spread it at a LAN you are definitely stealing and aiding piracy.
Secondly, in large companies like EA, the developers are being paid for their hours clocked with little regard to sales. It's not like they're eating dry pieces of bread every night until you go and buy that game.
The flaw in the logic is there, can you see it? If not let me break it down for you:

EA will invest money from other sources to pay the dev's to produce a game, when the game sells the dev's will get a portion of the sales for their time spent (bonuses and other benefits) but the majority of the sales goes back into the coffers of EA to recoup the money lost from the initial investment and if the dev's did their work correctly EA will turn a profit and carry on making games. Now think, what would happen if everyone pirated the same game from EA? EA would lose money, lose investors and at the end of the day cannot pay their staff who in turn lose their jobs because EA had to close their doors. Now does making a copy still not sound like piracy?

I'm off to bed, play nice all. ;).
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Prime »

StarBound wrote:I dont know if this deserves to be here or the piracy thread in the chill out forums so move it to where its most appropriate.

Ok firstly the definition. Everyone is talking about the IP (intellectual property) theft when mentioned of piracy. But isnt this wrong? I mean your not stealing the IP. Stealing the IP would be something like EA taking Sonic the hedgehog from Sega and slap him into "Need for Speed Sonic!". Plainly put its theft of a product. Same as a chocolate from a store shelf except I think digital distribution screwed that theory over.

Next is the piracy figures from MW2 during Nov 2009 wasnt it? 300k pc sales vs 4.1 mil pirate downloads. How accurate is that info? How legit is the source? And whats the cause? They lost maybe 1mil in legit sales instantly when they announced "no dedicated servers". But take it further. Eg how many of those 4.1mil did they recover because those that downloaded it figured its worth the price? How many stopped demoing it after a few matches of utter frustration? How many kept on trying to get dedicated servers working on non-keyed product before spending money on a valid key?

I'd love to take these figures to heart and believe but I cant. There is simply too many unaccounted for factors and the only thing ringing true that is only half mentioned is that DRM is chasing people away and my response is simply that if the game is worth buying it will be bought on ps3 where I dictate if I can play it or not.
Buying a game, gives you a licence to use their IP with their permission. Pirating a game means you are using their IP with out a licence means you are using their intellectual property with out their permission. IP is not just about the Physical Part but all the hours and brainwork that goes into developing the product. As Anakha said, you are depriving them of money they would have earned which is theft.

And as I have said before, Bluray is DRM. You are still playing it on Sony's terms.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Bladerunner »

Anakha56 wrote:
Bladerunner wrote: I did not take it. I made a replica of it.
Actually making a replica is theft, it is theft of IP. The developer owns the distribution rights, name rights and concept rights hell they own the whole friggin IP! By making a copy you are depriving them of a sale which in the digital age is theft.

To use the EA/SEGA example. If EA made a "Need for Speed: Rat" and made the Rat very similar looking to Sonic, spiky hair, lighter shade of blue and instead of collecting rings he collects hoops SEGA can successfully argue in court that their IP is being infringed on. The same applies to a musician who take lyrics from another song without that artist consent and plays that.

By making a copy you are stealing because you have denied the developer a sale and if you spread it at a LAN you are definitely stealing and aiding piracy.
Secondly, in large companies like EA, the developers are being paid for their hours clocked with little regard to sales. It's not like they're eating dry pieces of bread every night until you go and buy that game.
The flaw in the logic is there, can you see it? If not let me break it down for you:

EA will invest money from other sources to pay the dev's to produce a game, when the game sells the dev's will get a portion of the sales for their time spent (bonuses and other benefits) but the majority of the sales goes back into the coffers of EA to recoup the money lost from the initial investment and if the dev's did their work correctly EA will turn a profit and carry on making games. Now think, what would happen if everyone pirated the same game from EA? EA would lose money, lose investors and at the end of the day cannot pay their staff who in turn lose their jobs because EA had to close their doors. Now does making a copy still not sound like piracy?

I'm off to bed, play nice all. ;).

This was the first mature counter-argument I got all evening.

Actually making a replica is theft, it is theft of IP.
-----------------

I am quoting the following from a website:
People who copy information, like people who gossip (the analogy of passing on “unauthorized” information here is intentional), are not thieves. They may not be as morally wholesome as saints but they only commit the crime of theft in your antiquated and mistaken view of the ontology of information. Information is not an object.
And the following as well:
Piracy, whatever it is, is not stealing. You are making a mistake of treating information with the same kind of moral metrics that we traditionally use for material objects.

Consider these facts about the proposition: B steals X from A:

* A no longer owns X
* X is no longer owned by A.
* B now owns X

Now consider the facts about the proposition: B copies X from A without A’s consent.

* A continues to own X
* X is owned by A
* X is owned by B
* B continues to own X

These relationships can be expressed in many different ways, what is inescapable about them is that unauthorized copying is not stealing.

The closest you can come to equating copying with stealing is if you speak not of the thing copied but of the "act of purchase". That is, that what is being deprived from B is A's act of purchase. But this in itself is a nonsense because it assumed that A would in all cases have purchased x from B.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Bladerunner »

Prime wrote: Buying a game, gives you a licence to use their IP with their permission.
It doesn't. You're really just "borrowing" the game/software. You're not allowed to do anything with their IP in itself.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by StarBound »

Why pay for something that is free? Well no one can argue with that. So if you want to justify prices then where is my full colour manual? Where is my hologrammed disc with the developer or publishers name on the disc? Where is my extras like for instance DLC codes that came with the disc and box? The only games I could ever justify the price was Blizzards games because the manuals was awesome and if you looked at the Collectors Edition content it makes everyone else look CHEAP bottom.

let's try it from another perspective. Piracy is there. It happens when you add fuel to the flame by cutting down on extras, increases price and add rediculous means to play your games. R300/$40 to R400/$60 a game and all you get is a box with a disc and a pamflet inside saying download content from Steam. I mean seriously WTF. Your trying to convince people not to take the digital only format and then you throw something like that at them? If you take all those digital downloads that were pirated pc version of MW2 then does it say go digital or does it say go disc version and give something extra? Even with 4.1mil pirated copies downloaded my question would be is IWnet really that bad that players who got the game in others ways than buying it allowed them to play online ON IWNET with OTHER PLAYERS?

I once copied many titles. Infact I believe every NES game I had was some chinese ripoff since I did see the actual NES looked much different. Most of my sega mega drive games were also pal/ntsc game rips except for Sonic 3 and Sonic & knuckles which could save and attach. playstation games? Chipped and R150 from the local telegames. Then I got a pc that could play games. We got SIN, Quake 2, Diablo, and others not worth mentioning. Diablo was one of those cases where the game was cracked with no music. The full retailed version with music and movies was to die for. Quake 2 eventually became an addition to our gaming collection as we played it over and over. SIN got the boot after getting stuck on the load screen and a level later on. Half life was a copied cd from someone I knew that we just had to have a few years later down the line. Unreal Tournament came in an oh so shiney box that I simply couldnt resist buying it and it still have a place on the shelf next to my PC even this day. Point is I was a poor bottom back then with a system that could bearly play games and when we played a game constantly we just bought the thing instead of borrowing other copies.

The PS2, PS3, Xbox 360 and Wii hasnt seen a mod chip or copied game ever. Mainly because I can afford games now (I hate my job but I love getting paid) plus the BTGames bargin bin and platinum titles makes it easier to afford them if I cant get them 2nd hand online. This brings us to the next part.

Second Hand games on consoles where you need to buy the DLC again.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Prime »

Bladerunner wrote:
Monty wrote:
Bladerunner wrote:Common misconception. 90% of pirates would not have bought it if they couldn't pirate it in the first place. So in that sense the company really isn't losing money.
Do you have a reputable source for that statement? Or have you just sucked thumb and dropped a number?
Why would people spend so many hours (even days or weeks) developing software cracks, and so many people download cracks if they could just go "buy" it? Because they're pirates at heart and won't be buying the game.

I am a pirate, and I know a lot of people overseas and local who are pirates. And we DON'T buy games or music, no matter what. ;) (Now are you going to attack this statement and say: "Oh no hold on a sec, you're friends with a very tiny group of people, and the chances of anyone else having the same kind of friends are highly unlikely" ?)
No, despite what you would like to think, not everyone on the planet has no morals or ethics like you or your friends, and honestly, it will come back to bite you. I don't have to hope, I know it will.

Sitting on my shelf are over 40 titles of games I have bought over the years, and the 3 odd games that I don't have a legitimate version of, I would buy in a heartbeat if I could find an original.

Poeple don't just sit and develop cracks so that you can pirate games. I can think of several cracks that the developers didn't create for piracy. The Sacred: Fallen Angel crack has a Notice that states that the purpose of the crack is intended only to allow the game to be run offline and not for piracy. Have you noticed how many of these crackers you are defending write trojans into their programs?

And I still don't see a source for your figures.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by D3PART3D »

Bladerunner wrote:Why would people spend so many hours (even days or weeks) developing software cracks, and so many people download cracks if they could just go "buy" it? Because they're pirates at heart and won't be buying the game.
...

but that crack is the same crack that Johnny down the road is going to use. Johnny was going to buy the game, but since you gave him the crack... he is now going to have a delicious steak instead.

I personally feel that IP is one of those things that everyone in society agrees to recognise because we see how it will benefit us all. Kinda like a social contract. Even if it isn't morally wrong (which it kinda is) you're doing the rest of us a disservice by cracking things. We should have you relocated to somewhere unsanitary.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by StarBound »

Prime wrote:And as I have said before, Bluray is DRM. You are still playing it on Sony's terms.
Actually I disagree. Xbox games can only be played on xbox, wii only on wii and ps3 only on ps3. Blueray doesnt belong to Sony alone. Even windows games needs windows to run. You can use a windows emulater to play the games but all that allows you to do is play the game on a pc with its minimums. Same reasons why a MD game didnt run on a SNES, you needed the exact hardware specifications to run it.
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Bladerunner »

Prime wrote: No, despite what you would like to think, not everyone on the planet has no morals or ethics like you or your friends, and honestly, it will come back to bite you. I don't have to hope, I know it will.

Sitting on my shelf are over 40 titles of games I have bought over the years, and the 3 odd games that I don't have a legitimate version of, I would buy in a heartbeat if I could find an original.

Poeple don't just sit and develop cracks so that you can pirate games. I can think of several cracks that the developers didn't create for piracy. The Sacred: Fallen Angel crack has a Notice that states that the purpose of the crack is intended only to allow the game to be run offline and not for piracy. Have you noticed how many of these crackers you are defending write trojans into their programs?

And I still don't see a source for your figures.
1. You are taking this argument to a personal level by insinuating I have no morals or ethics. Personal attacks in a debate indicates a lack of maturity.

2. You have named one game (one which I've never even heard of) where the developers created a no-cd crack for the legit users. [Respect btw, I might actually consider buying this game just because they did that.]

3. There are many reputable crackers out there, if a script kiddie attaches a virus or trojan to a crack, don't blame the guys who had the brains to actually crack it.

4. Can you give a source which proves my estimation wrong?
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by Bladerunner »

D3PART3D wrote: but that crack is the same crack that Johnny down the road is going to use. Johnny was going to buy the game, but since you gave him the crack... he is now going to have a delicious steak instead.
But WOULD Johnny really have bought the game? Or would he just have had the delicious steak anyway?
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Re: Piracy article in June issue

Post by doo_much »

Lemmetjie you are in the wrong on both legal and moral grounds. Give it up.
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