Remapping and other performance tweaks

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ryanrich
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Remapping and other performance tweaks

Post by ryanrich »

MOD NOTE: This discussion was taking the "Your wheels (pics)" thread way off-topic, but rather than give the standard "get on topic or bugger off" warning, I've decided to split the discussion out to it's own thread. Definitely believe that this discussion is worth of it. (The Lurker)

Added some Lamin-X to my lights over the weekend. 6% tint on the heads and tails and yellow on the fogs. Love the look!

Also had some FRC performance software loaded over the weekend which added about 20kW and 80nm to my flywheel figures, so the car is now making around 400nm, which my tires are gonna love... :lol:

Image

Image
SykomantiS
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Re: Your wheels (pics)

Post by SykomantiS »

Really? 80Nm... from a software upgrade? Seriously, 80Nm?
Sorry if I'm a bit sceptical :|
ryanrich
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Re: Your wheels (pics)

Post by ryanrich »

You can be as skeptical as you want bud, it's facts... :lol:

Will be doing a dyno run soon then will post my graph. Stage 1 software on a turbo car generally produces around a 20% increase in power.

For example, a friend up in JHB who did a dyno run on his S3 before and after FRC stage 1 was loaded had the following results at the wheels:

Stock: 157kW / 307nm
FRC: 185kW / 373nm

The 2.0 TDI engine gaines around 20 - 25kW and 60 - 80nm.

;)
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Re: Your wheels (pics)

Post by GreyWolf »

QFT.

My brother recently had his car dyno tuned... I mean, just changed mapping and got an extra 20nm on the wheels on his 328i.

The guys told him if they do a proper tune (checking exhaust gas ratios) he will get even more.
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Re: Your wheels (pics)

Post by SykomantiS »

Well if the software changes the boost characteristics then I can understand. That would be possible yes.
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Re: Your wheels (pics)

Post by GreyWolf »

Syko.. also keep in mind that turbo engines (especially diesel ones) tend to come out of the factory under-stressed, in order to give them longevity, so there is usually a lot of untapped potential in them.
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Re: Your wheels (pics)

Post by SykomantiS »

I'm well aware of that GW. It's just the 1st I've heard of a software upgrade unlocking 80Nm- But like I said, if the boost charactaristics are altered then it makes sense.
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Re: Your wheels (pics)

Post by ryanrich »

If this is honestly the first you've heard of it then you don't spend much time part of car clubs or the tuning scene and then it's quite understandable that you're a bit skeptical, because it is very much the norm for a turbo car to gain quite a bit from software alone.

As GW says, these cars are very under powered from the factory and there is a ton of potential under the hood with a few mods.

Like I said, I will post up my dyno graph for you once I have a run to show you that I'm not trying to blow smoke up your backside. :o

Here is the S3 dyno graph so that you can see the increase in power and torque on the curve, I have just edited out his reg number.

Test 2 is stock, Test 4 is after the software remap. I also said between 60 and 80nm is gained in general on this engine.

Image
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Re: Your wheels (pics)

Post by SykomantiS »

Well, TBH, I don't spend much time on the car tuner scene, I'm more of 2-wheels kinda guy myself (I don't even own a car right now). I'm not used to buying wheels from a factory and then having to go aftermarket to get the motor doing what it's supposed to do from the get-go :lol:

A bit off-topic, can we discuss stuff like this here, or is this strictly pics or gtfo?
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Re: Your wheels (pics)

Post by GreyWolf »

SykomantiS wrote:Well, TBH, I don't spend much time on the car tuner scene, I'm more of 2-wheels kinda guy myself (I don't even own a car right now). I'm not used to buying wheels from a factory and then having to go aftermarket to get the motor doing what it's supposed to do from the get-go :lol:

A bit off-topic, can we discuss stuff like this here, or is this strictly pics or gtfo?
2 wheel vs 4? yoh yoh yoh... asking for it :)
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ryanrich
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Re: Your wheels (pics)

Post by ryanrich »

SykomantiS wrote:I'm more of 2-wheels kinda guy myself (I don't even own a car right now). I'm not used to buying wheels from a factory and then having to go aftermarket to get the motor doing what it's supposed to do from the get-go :lol:
So bikes come from the factory achieving their absolute maximum and don't benefit from aftermarket performance parts? Interesting...

Anyways, yeah, back on topic, although the discussion of rides and the pics posted is allowed.
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Re: Your wheels (pics)

Post by WiK1d »

ryanrich wrote:
SykomantiS wrote:I'm more of 2-wheels kinda guy myself (I don't even own a car right now). I'm not used to buying wheels from a factory and then having to go aftermarket to get the motor doing what it's supposed to do from the get-go :lol:
So bikes come from the factory achieving their absolute maximum and don't benefit from aftermarket performance parts? Interesting...
To be fair, modern sport bikes have as much power pulled from their power plants without spending tons of cash on ported and skimmed heads, titanium cams, cranks, valves and springs and lightweight stators, etc. WSBK bikes push 220-230bhp from 180bhp stock engines after having a few hundred thousand Euros pushed into developing them.

The only two real upgrades to do on sport-bikes without dropping more cash than the bike costs into the whole setup is full exhaust systems, air filters and spark plugs with matching dyno tunes.

You just gained 20kW and 80nm by flashing the ECU because it's detuned for panzy drivers :P
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Re: Your wheels (pics)

Post by ryanrich »

No, it's tuned for reliability and fuel economy from the factory. Almost every standard turbo car can be tuned to gain about 15 - 20% more power reliably and with only a revised software map (GTI, Focus ST, Megane RS, S3, 2.0T and all TDI's). Anyways, I'm a little over arguing facts now, if you guys want to investigate more go browse some car club forums or attend a dyno day where you can speak to guys clued up on the subject.

Clearly a PC forum isn't the best place to discuss such things. :lol:
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Re: Your wheels (pics)

Post by SykomantiS »

Ryan, I never said bikes come from the factory with absolute maximum power available. But, like Wik said, as much power as is realistically achievable is already available right off the bat. He is solidly on the money with his statement.

What I meant to say is that you will never see a 20% increase (that's what you just unlocked, amirite?) just by reflashing the ecu. The setup Wik mentioned (zorst, filter and map) will barely nett you 20hp, at best. Maybe 25hp... And that's a BIG maybe.
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Re: Your wheels (pics)

Post by GreyWolf »

Could it be that you guys are comparing apples with bananas?

I mean a sport bike != audi tdi in terms of market segment. More like sport bike = sports car (m3 / Ariel atom). Which require a lot more work to increase performance as they are already tuned for it.
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Re: Your wheels (pics)

Post by WiK1d »

Sure, let's take a 125cc Aprilia RS125 two stroke. 1st step, de-restrict it, 2nd step, port the head in and outlets, 3rd step, tune the carburettor. Other than that you're not able to do much more to gain more than 35hp (from 25hp stock). 125GP bikes run at 50hp with a top-end over 200kph. Those bikes cost a crapload of money. Just the cylinder head, piston, bearings and gaskets cost 3300GBP.

Let's not even get started on 125cc four strokes. They make 15hp, and that's it. You can throw all the money you want at it and barely get any results. 125GP's are being replaced by 250 four strokes. These new bikes will pump out about 50-60 horsepower. Honda developed the CBR250 from 86-96 and it made 40-45hp.

Most sit-up naked bikes utilise differently tuned engines from their sportbike big brothers. Suzuki GSR600 and Honda CB1000 come to mind. They focus more on midrange grunt as opposed to top-end power.

Motorcycle engines rev much higher than car engines therefore the range for improvement is much smaller.
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Your wheels (pics)

Post by ryanrich »

GreyWolf wrote:Could it be that you guys are comparing apples with bananas?

I mean a sport bike != audi tdi in terms of market segment. More like sport bike = sports car (m3 / Ariel atom). Which require a lot more work to increase performance as they are already tuned for it.
Ed zachary!

I know quite little about crotch rockets and their tuning potential. My point was just that a mass produced engine doesn't leave the factory producing it's maximum potential. As GW states, on sport bikes and sports cars it's way harder to extract that little bit more power. An RS4 or M3 for example will see a fraction of the performance increase a regular car will from only chipping because they WERE in fact designed to perform at their absolute peak. I suspect the same can be said for a superbike.

Anyways, enough talking, where are the pics!? :lol:
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Re: Your wheels (pics)

Post by WiK1d »

Okay, let's take a real performer. Audi RS6 V10. It already produces 580bhp as a stock car and is ridiculously fast. Just by remapping the engine management you get 70bhp.

Another one, Golf 6 GTI, remap and an upgraded dump valve gives you 50 extra ponies. Audi TT RS, 55bhp gain by remapping.

Yes, production engines aren't built to their full potential, but with motorcycles you need to invest a LOT of money for very little gain. The only real OEM component on a WSBK engine is the block. Everything else is either modified or replaced with higher quality components just to get a 20-25% gain after they invested hundreds of thousands of Euros in R&D and testing.

Let's take my bike for example. Triumph offers a full race kit for the bike consisting of the following:
Head Gasket 0.65mm - A9618072
Head Gasket 0.60mm - A9618073
Cam - Inlet Kit - A9618055
Cam - Exhaust Kit - A9618056
Valve Spring Kit - A9618058
Camshaft Sprocket Kit - A9618057
Cam Chain Kit - A9618059
Cam Chain Tensioner Kit (manually adjustable) - A9618060
Inlet & Exhaust Valve Kit - A9618061
Air Funnel Kit - A9618063
Exhaust System, Stage 2 (Arrow) - A9600197
Air Filter Kit (BMC) - A9618075
Slipper Clutch Kit (STM) - A9618039
1st Gear pair & Housing Kit - A9618066
Alternator Kit - A9618069
Alternator Puller Tool Kit - A3880206
Manual Idle Speed Adjuster Kit - A9618076
Race ECU Kit - A9618070
Race Harness Kit - A9618071
Clutch Cover, Carbon Fibre Kit - A9728028
Crank Cover, Carbon Fibre Kit - A9728029
Race Alternator Cover, Carbon Fibre Kit - A9728032
Image

That little bit of kit will set you back $8,684.77. A brand new 2011 Daytona will cost you $10,500. Add to that already long list a Stage 3 Arrow Exhaust (£1328.26) and a race head job (Either $350 for a very basic within National Supersport Rules job or $750 for the full blown let's get the max performance out of this plant job) and you're looking at a very hefty sum to increase 125 crank horse power to about 150-160 crank horsepower. And then still it won't be the same as the ParkinGO BE1 bikes were last year, nor will it actually be fast enough to compete at a world level (but that's the bike's fault).

Edit: Oh and, you gotta remember that most Superbikes, yes, I'm using the highest form here, make 160-190hp off 1litre. BMW M3 = 100hp/l, Audi R8 V10 = 101hp/l, Lamborghini Gallardo LP570 = 110hp/l, Koenigsegg CCXR (Supercharged) = 212hp/l, Bugatti Veyron (Quad-Turbo) = 125hp/l.

Heck, my 125 two-stroke makes 200hp/l
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Re: Your wheels (pics)

Post by GreyWolf »

WiK1d wrote:Okay, let's take a real performer. Audi RS6 V10. It already produces 580bhp as a stock car and is ridiculously fast. Just by remapping the engine management you get 70bhp.
That's only a 12% increase.

Sure bikes have WAY more power per liter, but a bike only needs to move 300/400 kg. Not even a Mini weighs that much.

Furthermore, how often does a bike need to be serviced, cos a friend of mine has a 4 stroke off road bike, that he only uses on Sundays, and he needs to service it every 2 months.

My 12 year old car does 500 km a week and I only need to service it every 5/6 months...

Not mocking bikes, just pointing out that cars are built for reliability...
Last edited by GreyWolf on 06 Jun 2011, 20:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your wheels (pics)

Post by WiK1d »

GreyWolf wrote:
WiK1d wrote:Okay, let's take a real performer. Audi RS6 V10. It already produces 580bhp as a stock car and is ridiculously fast. Just by remapping the engine management you get 70bhp.
That's only a 12% increase.
By only remapping the ECU. If I could get 140hp out of my bike by just remapping the ECU I'd be over the moon.
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Re: Your wheels (pics)

Post by GreyWolf »

Cant argue there... but out of curiosity.. how often do you need to service your daily bike?
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Re: Your wheels (pics)

Post by WiK1d »

Every 10,000km's
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Re: Your wheels (pics)

Post by SykomantiS »

lolwut?? :?
GSX-R1000, every 5000km :roll:

Where'd you get the extra 5000km? :P

I think I'll take back what I said, bikes pretty much perform at their absolute best given the parts. :lol:
(Yes, there's always room for improvement...)

Also, another thing. the fact that a bike motor only has to move "300 - 400" kg :lol: (that's ~200, wet, nowadays) is irrelevant. the weight of the bike has nothing to do with the state of tune of the motor.
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Re: Your wheels (pics)

Post by WiK1d »

SykomantiS wrote:lolwut?? :?
GSX-R1000, every 5000km :roll:

Where'd you get the extra 5000km? :P
One of the various benefits of owning a Hinckley built machine

Image

I can't really comment on the weight issue as I know very little about it, but I would put that down to drive-train more than anything else.

As for your mates 250 offroad needing regular servicing, that's because it's pretty much a race bike. It's put under much more stress than casual road use. Same goes for any other form of racing vehicle.
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Re: Remapping and other performance tweaks

Post by SykomantiS »

Well, had a look at mine, seems it's only an oil change every 5000km, not not filter as I thought too, and then just washing the air filter. the rest happens at an additional 5k to 10k km intervals :lol:
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