Religion Fact or Fancy

Kher-za · Post by **Kher-za** » 11 Aug 2004, 16:19

it's the same old thing over and over again...people don't like games with seemingly evil elements, people who don't mind these elements voice their opinion, other people who believe the games are evil voice their opinions and don't like what the other 'team' said and pretty soon both are at each others necks. It's not a nice thing to see on the forums, 2 neighbours getting at each others throats.

but yeah, it would have been cool to keep the thread open a bit longer, i don't mind rustling a few feathers in a quick exchange

but it's BORING!

Post by **Scarlet_Spider** » 11 Aug 2004, 16:23

kher, your old avatar was way cool - this new aint doing it for me.

just to let you know - the old one was very "you"

jee · Post by **jee** » 11 Aug 2004, 16:40

Interestingly enough (and like my post yesterday about censorship by governments) I just watched a bbc program where they were talking about censoring websites, spreading to forums and in China even to text... so careful with those sms's.....

Post by **Kronos** » 11 Aug 2004, 16:44

The problem is that the thread was going to be locked anyway. Whether it was locked so soon, or later, AFTER everyone had been clawing at each others throats, it was inevitable.

How many times have we had flame wars because of Religious debates (That's what the Worship thread was turning into.)?

Even though it had only started with an outburst by Leigh, which, dare I say, was justified. Last-Attacker blatantly put his beliefs before his thoughts when he posted that, and that enrages many people, because it IS trying to force his beliefs on us, whether we want it or not.
If I may quote:

Last-Attacker wrote:...and just by playing it you are stepping closer to the gates of Hell. Repent and leave them alone! But look out, since DoomIII is almost here! Beware my fellow readers...

Last-Attacker wrote:...Yeah, keep telling yourself that! Satanism is REAL and everywhere. Satan has found a very effective way to make humans give him praise. He has already blinded us all, don't trip over something in the DARKNESS....

Etc, etc.
I'll take the blame for the thread being locked, since I PMed Lancelot to ask him to lock it, and he agreed with me and locked it.
If it hadn't been locked, more people would have jumped into the fray, Including myself, regardless of me being a Mod, and we (non believers), would have Pointed out how wrong LA was, and the believers would have pointed out that we're on our way to hell and then.....

You get the picture? I don't want to be the loser/cry-baby/mama's boy, but I just thought for the sake of piece.

RuadRauFlessa · Post by **RuadRauFlessa** » 11 Aug 2004, 16:51

go for it kronos

lancelot · Post by **lancelot** » 11 Aug 2004, 17:23

Look, I too may have let it go a bit longer but after reading Kronos' PM, I agreed that it would be locked sooner or later, so I decided sooner rather than later!
This is not the only forum that I partake in but let me say categorically that these other forums are rude, opinionated and sometimes quite foul. I have been sworn at, told that I was an idiot for posting a comment regarding anti-Semitism, which by the way I detest, so I am damned if I am going to let this happen here. Those that have known me from more than a year back will tell you that I am a friendly bloke who enjoys having a gentle, joking go at my mates.
Also I know Kronos' beliefs and if he can keep himself in check so can others. My beliefs are important to me and while I may have agreed with LA in certain respects, I felt that they were pertinent only as a suggestion and then left. Leigh's return fire was as inane as LA's resultant comments.
While I appreciate Kronos' taking the blame as it were, I can assure you that my decision would have been the same, in fact I alluded to this a bit higher up in the thread.

Greywolf said:

Guys, I am a bit peeved here.
I feel the thread "Worshiping without knowing" posted by Last-attacker was way too prematurely locked. It was getting heated, that I agree with, but is not a good debate supposed to be heated? Furthermore the people arguing were keeping it civil. i.e. no name calling, insulting or other immature actions.

Now I agree with the Wolf as well but unfortunately the name calling etc. was already beginning. Now I am all in favour of a good debate, if someone wants to try it again, go for it!

Leigh · Post by **Leigh** » 11 Aug 2004, 19:19

lancelot wrote:Leigh's return fire was as inane as LA's resultant comments.

Lancelot, personally I am glad that you closed that thread. But I do feel that it's not "inane" to get upset when someone basically says you're evil and worshipping a devil because you play certain games. Evil is flying a plane into the World Trade Center or raping babies. Playing a game is just not in the same league as that, so I take offense to being likened to individuals who perpetrate such crimes as I have just mentioned.

I don't like arguing on internet forums and generally always totally refrain from it. But this is one very sensitive issue, and while I admit I did indeed have quite an aggressive reaction to the post, I feel that it was justified.

Thug4life · Post by **Thug4life** » 11 Aug 2004, 20:53

I personally feel that the Entertainment 3.0 moderators are very good. I think that they generally do not have an aggressive attitude and they only close threads that are either out of hand or inappropriate topics. It is unpleasant to have uncontrolled forums as some people are obviously not responsible enough to know what and when to post.

I personally applaud the mods of E3 for their sound judgment.

(Let us not forget that we, the users of E3 selected our mods.)

Law · Post by **Law** » 12 Aug 2004, 07:33

I'm sorry the Cheese was not present in this "debate".

For it is known that L-A hath no Cheese. Hence forth we should all open our arms and give Cheese unto L-A. And may he eat though Cheese and become happy and Kill some Hell Demons or those toyt little puppies that like chewing on your head and be even more happy. The CHeese brings me Comfort as it should you L-A. Thats why i have some on my bread today. And i am thankful for the Cheesy flavour it brings

May the Cheese guild you in this confused time. May it's Cheesy goodness give you that warm feeling and make you eat of the Cheese evermore

ACHeese

kailinin · Post by **kailinin** » 12 Aug 2004, 08:41

Law wrote:I'm sorry the Cheese was not present in this "debate".

For it is known that L-A hath no Cheese. Hence forth we should all open our arms and give Cheese unto L-A. And may he eat though Cheese and become happy and Kill some Hell Demons or those toyt little puppies that like chewing on your head and be even more happy. The CHeese brings me Comfort as it should you L-A. Thats why i have some on my bread today. And i am thankful for the Cheesy flavour it brings

May the Cheese guild you in this confused time. May it's Cheesy goodness give you that warm feeling and make you eat of the Cheese evermore

ACHeese

now that was "cheesy"

lancelot · Post by **lancelot** » 12 Aug 2004, 08:44

Leigh wrote:

Lancelot, personally I am glad that you closed that thread. But I do feel that it's not "inane" to get upset when someone basically says you're evil and worshipping a devil because you play certain games.

Perhaps the word "inane" was a bit strong, I will settle for robust! The point is though, much of what you say and feel is pertinent, and much of what LA feels and says is also pertinent. We now live in a world where moral declination has reached mammoth proportions; in fact we live in a world with no absolutes. This, on its own, has led people into a state of anything goes. "Let's make a computer game that is shocking, violent, inhabited by demonic beings, artistically designed to instil a sense of foreboding, a sense of fear and make it available for all", say the game designers! However "all" consist of mature people like yourself, Greywolf, Kronos and many others but also young unformed and easily influenced minds like my nine year old nephew who now believes that the world is inhabited by demons. Does this feeling eventually lead to the young experimenting with the occult, does it lead them into areas where their very sanity is challenged? I believe that it is possible and even a possibility should be investigated!
My point is, while the mature among us easily cope with fantasy and can differentiate between actual and fantasy, there are many that cannot. Pornography is a case in point, is it degrading to a female to see sexual exploitation of her body freely shown on local TV or worse still, to see females having sex with dogs, donkeys, horses and the like? We have Hentai which produces drawings of indescribable filth, using the very medium that you so brilliantly produce using graphics. Does it not pain you to see what rubbish may be produced by something that you have spent time and talent producing? Is this "Freedom of Speech", I think not! This is a case in point of absolutes having no absolute!

We have a debate raging in the UK as we speak regarding "Manhunt, the game", I personally think that this game was not worth the hours spent on producing it, that is my thought, but did it influence a teenager to copycat a terrible murder on a fellow boy? I don't know but let me say this, the possibility must exist, and the Columbine School incident seemed to be highly influenced by material easily available as games or across cyberspace. So before firm conclusions are reached by the hidden message that LA was attempting to explain we cannot simply dump this on the trash heap!

Tamsini added a footnote to the locked topic in which she mentioned a discussion with a church official. I use the term official on purpose, there are many opinions held by religious people, all of them as diverse as a South African economist! This is not about religion, it is about a personal belief or experience, it is about a relationship with the Creator, it is deeply personal, I think that is where LA is coming from! I know that many feel that evangelism is an unwanted intrusion upon their lives, whether this pricks their conscience, I do not know but often the fervour used by evangelists are misplaced and handled without forethought. This puts peoples backs up, in my opinion this is what happened here!
To those of you who sounded support for the mods, I thank you, for those I offended, I apologise, will it change me, I don’t think so.

Kher-za · Post by **Kher-za** » 12 Aug 2004, 08:45

let's hope no1 suffers from lactose intolerance over here

Was it that sweet? Lancelot 8O

Law · Post by **Law** » 12 Aug 2004, 08:54

As the Cheese is my witness I did not have sexual relations with that Donkey

Kher-za · Post by **Kher-za** » 12 Aug 2004, 08:54

RuadRauFlessa · Post by **RuadRauFlessa** » 12 Aug 2004, 08:57

nice ave Kher-za

lancelot · Post by **lancelot** » 12 Aug 2004, 09:01

Yes, that is a good avi Kher_za!
I just hope that none of your parents did, Law! I could not let that go by, I do apologise, it is just a joke, please!

Kher-za · Post by **Kher-za** » 12 Aug 2004, 09:02

thanx...

lol at lancelot, i know the temptation!

Law · Post by **Law** » 12 Aug 2004, 09:09

Damb i wondered what that was. I just thought i had a second, non urinating, hairy flyswatting

. Obviously i was mistaken. I will live my life searching for my soul DOnkey so we can live happily ever after.

GreyWolf · Post by **GreyWolf** » 12 Aug 2004, 09:23

Ok guys, I see your point, but I still wanted to make some comments, especially about that article... what the hell(oops), I will make them here...

It seems the guy who wrote the article didn't play the games he was talking about, just saw some screen shots, other wise he would have noticed that the whole point of the game was to slay deamons, and fight back the hordes of hell. So in actual fact(it can be argued) the game(doom) is not leading us to satanism, but actually preparing us for armageddon, where we will fight on the side of heaven with our BFGs!!!

I can't wait!

Law · Post by **Law** » 12 Aug 2004, 09:35

you gotta love BFG's

Edit: I just noticed your spec's and decided i hate you cause you'll own Doom3 with that setup

lancelot · Post by **lancelot** » 12 Aug 2004, 09:38

GreyWolf, I don't think that Doom itself would lead someone toward satanism or any other other detrimental frame of mind on its own. I too have not seen the latest version but from posts put up here it would seem to be a game with excellent graphical presentation.
Whether the peeps slay demons or more than likely, the demons slay them does not directly influence a mind. It is the resultant behaviour than may remotely have a bearing on an immature mind! These games rely on the power and pull of fantasy, the game is scary I am told. Youngsters should have some form of guidance when delving into horrific fantasy, I say guidance, not necessarily parental because some parents are incapable of guiding a hamster to its wheel.

Ihsahn · Post by **Ihsahn** » 12 Aug 2004, 09:43

lancelot wrote:GreyWolf, I don't think that Doom itself would lead someone toward satanism or any other other detrimental frame of mind on its own. I too have not seen the latest version but from posts put up here it would seem to be a game with excellent graphical presentation.
Whether the peeps slay demons or more than likely, the demons slay them does not directly influence a mind. It is the resultant behaviour than may remotely have a bearing on an immature mind! These games rely on the power and pull of fantasy, the game is scary I am told. Youngsters should have some form of guidance when delving into horrific fantasy, I say guidance, not necessarily parental because some parents are incapable of guiding a hamster to its wheel.

Your logic impresses me

Last-Attacker · Post by **Last-Attacker** » 12 Aug 2004, 09:56

I have to admit that I was a bit pushy, and I apologise... BUT...!
Games like Doom, Quake, etc. doesn't nessasary lead you to Satanism, but that is not necessary for Satan, all you have to do is play it and allready you've given a part of you to him. Did God teach us that if we encounter a deamon, that we should combat it with earthly things?
How on earth can you defeat a spiritual being with a materialistic thing? This teaches us that if a deamon could walk the earth, then anyone can simply take a shotgun or something and shoot it, to kill it. But how can you kill something spiritual? Know what I mean?

EDIT : This sort'of teaches us that we can rely on ourselves, that we can actually defeat deamons without God's help! INSANE!

Post by **Y0da** » 12 Aug 2004, 10:29

I don't want to open a can of worms but...

The Christian View:

The bible teaches that Satan is a very sly and cunning enemy that should be respected as such. It teaches us that Satan will use any method possible to create the illusion of being a friendly oke that shouldn't be feared. Once a Christian falls into this trap he will let things slip by in his daily life that he shouldn't allow. If he doesn't pay attention to this he could end up falling back to the ways of the world. Which is what Satan wants. The best known way for Satan to achieve this goal is to let people joke about him and not take him serious. This can be seen in movies, cartoons, games, books etc. The world ends up looking at Satan as a clumpsy, stupid fool that can be easily beaten. Which is his ultimate goal.

Think about it. If Sadam had armed his nuclear missiles and the rest of the world was convinced he was a funny little oke that needn't be worried about, wouldn't we have a problem? He would press the red button and we would all be dead (most of us).

The best combat strategy is to make your enemy believe you are weak.

Therefore, the message is not that people who play certain games or watch certain movies etc. are eveil or evil doers. The message is that people should take man's worst enemy more serious. Don't make a game out of Satan, coz he's not playing with us. He want's to destroy you and will take any change you give him to do so.

If you play these games you are not gonna go straight to hell. But you might forget that Satan is your worst nightmare and eventually you might forsake the Truth. This is the real danger.

The worlds view:

Because they don't believe in God or Satan they don't see this as a threat. Because they more than likely think of Satan as a short litlle horny oke with a pitchfork they don't realise what he's up to. Satan uses this to keep them away from God. As long as they don't believe, he's happy. And he will try to keep it this way. It's pointless to try and convince a non believer that these thing are wrong. For them it's not. They are not saved and therefore don't realise the struggle that continues between good and evil. It's like trying to tell someone that has never seen the ocean or a picture of it that you can drown in it. He doesn't have a frame of reference and will just brush it of.

Final thought:

God's message is not one of condemnation but one of love. He gives those that believe in Him certain rules and guidelines to protect them from getting hurt. He reaches out to those who don't accept Him but he can't force you to accept Him. It's your choice.

Christians should rather spread the message of Salvation to non believers and not start debates on issues that is only relevant to Christians.

Hope this clears up things a bit.

RuadRauFlessa · Post by **RuadRauFlessa** » 12 Aug 2004, 10:35

Ok firstly in doom they are called demons but in actual fact they are metaphysical beings which can be touched and in order to kill something that can be physically touched is a sinch. A true demon or spirit is another matter cuz nothing from this realm can touch it.

Secondly (and for this I am going to be blasted back to the stone age) all religions in the end worship the same god. Since God is everything. He is not one entity on his own but a collection of everything that exists and has energy flowing through them. I have come to experience this through various things that happined to me, but I will not delve into them here cuz it is not appropriate. Further more the bible sais that you may not worship any other god before him so how about a god after him or even a godess? So what is wrong with worshiping a stone if you take it for what it truly is.

Just to note I do not worship anything I merely accept what there is for what it is and handel them accordingly.