General Photography and Camera Q&A

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General Photography and Camera Q&A

Post by Synthesis »

Ok, going on holiday with the family I need a camera. I would love to get into photography as a hobby because it'll fit in well with my work as a travel to exotic and weird places. But it's pretty expensive and I have my priorities.
So anyway, that's want I want it for. A hobby to keep busy while away from home alone, and to be able to take the perfect pictures of occassions when I am home.

I've been looking for an entry level DSLR and so far the only one which appeals to me is the Canon EOS 1100D for an average price of R3500 with an 18-55mm lense.

While checking reviews and so on I came across a "budget compact" camera. The Nikon Coolpix L310 For half the price of R1700. Sure, it doesn't have interchangeable lenses but it does boast, and I quote, "21x optical zoom which is a 35mm equivalent of 25-525mm". I don't understand this much. I mean, what is 21x optical zoom and how's it equivalent to 25-525mm ?

So my question is this: Is it worth spending so much extra on the canon when it seems I'm getting the same quality on the Nikon for half the price? Not taking into account of upgrading and buying lenses. That won't happen any time soon , BUT I don't want to regret it later either.

P.S. Maybe someone is looking to upgrade or has something similar or better lying around. I'm willing to talk, although I must say I am EXTREMELY hesitant on purchasing a 2nd hand camera. So it'll have to really be from a very reliable source with valid reason for selling. You know who you are. :wink:
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by Anakha56 »

Will get a hold of DJV to come and assist you, hopefully he will have some time to answer your questions. Trouble should also give you some good insights :).

My personal opinion is get the DSLR type. When I went to Dubai I wanted a camera for photos, and since I was leaving the next day, I picked up a Panasonic Micro 4/3rds camera and am loving every minute of it. Keep in mind when I bought this camera it was not going to be a hobby but now that I have been "bitten" I want a proper DSLR camera and going to save for one. The changing of lens gives one a lot more freedom to play with and can get you a lot of awesome pics with different lenses. If you can get a DSLR... :)
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by Synthesis »

That's exactly how I'm thinking. I can get a Nikon D70 if I want, but I'm just trying to justify spending 3.5k on an entry level while for my purpose 1.5k will do the same (or not?). But thanks, will wait for some expertise :wink:
What I'm mainly getting at is, I don't know why I need different lenses because I don't understand it. From what I figure, the bigger the lense, the further you can zoom.
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by Anakha56 »

Not so! :lol: You get so many different types of lenses and they all do so many different things. My favorite lens by far is my 25mm lens gives me great detail on the main subject and is extremely versatile in aperture and shutter speed settings. I am still very much a beginner but when I get the big boy toys I will hopefully increase further :P. Side note I am still very much bugging DJV for tips & advice, thinking I should start paying the man for all his help... :P
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by DAE_JA_VOO »

Hello!! Haven't been on this forum in ages but Anakha asked me to pop in :D

Okay, so first off - is it worth getting the DSLR over the compact? I guess that all boils down to what you want:

Compact: Jack of all trades, master of none. Point & Shoot cameras are nice if you want to just take a snapshot. But the moment it comes to getting a great photograph, you're likely to struggle a bit. You'll get the shot, but there are a few issues:

1) The smaller sensor in a compact means that low-light performance is pretty much zero. The moment you try and take a shot at night, your photo looks terrible, unless you use the little flash, which will probably look even worse.

2) Sharpness is limited because these little cameras are designed to be able to zoom in on the flippen pores on your skin, as well as photograph a ship on the other side of the world. That range in zoom means that it's not very sharp anywhere.


Compacts are really tiny, though, which is convenient.



SLR: Only "Jack of all trades" if you have lenses for "all trades". SLR cameras are HIGHLY dependent on the lens you slap on the front. Want to do architectural shooting? Get a wide lens. Wildlife? Long lens. Etc. SLRs have significantly larger sensor than compact cameras, which means a number of things:

1) Higher Dynamic Range. In other words - you will have more detail in the darker parts of the shot, as well as the brighter parts.
2) Much better low-light performance
3) Overall increase in image quality
4) A bunch of other stuff, but the first 3 points are particularly important.


So here's what it comes down to: Do you care about getting a GOOD photo, or do you just want snapshots? I'm not suggesting that you can't get a good shot from a compact, but it's not MADE for that, it's for snapshots.

If you go the SLR route, you don't even need to spend a ton of money. I think my first camera/lens combo was about 3/4K. And I took some of my favourite shots with that thing. Look:

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I did those 4 shots with a D80 and a 50mm f/1.8D lens. That combo together can probably be found for R4000 if you're willing to buy second hand (which you should REALLY consider).

If you DO go the SLR route, sell that 18-55mm lens. It's a piece of junk. Sell it and buy a 50mm f/1.8D lens. As far as I'm concerned, a 50mm lens should be every photographer's starting lens.

Oh btw, the reason that the compact is the "35mm equivalent blah blah blah" is because of sensor size. Don't worry about that stuff, it's not important unless you're a photography nut :)

EDIT: That last photo is a pretty good example of the kind of photos you take of your kids/wife on holiday if you buy an SLR. You'll get nothing like that on the compact.
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by Synthesis »

Ok, that's the explanation I wanted. Especially the image samples. I've been judging my choices by reading reviews and seeing actual photo's. The sharpness makes sense as the compact camera always blurs badly on zooming, as if it's digital zoom. That's what I don't want.

I will take a look at some second hand DSLR's now. Didn't want to before. I'll start with the stock lens, play around, learn more about it and then I take it photography is addictive, so I'll collect more lenses as I need for a situation.

Thanks for taking the time out. You really helped with a decision. I suppose buying cheap is buying expensive in the long run :wink:
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by Tribble »

DJV said all I could have said.

As for make - that is a personal choice. Hold the camera - feel it. I have shot with many but the Canon suited me better. Most of my friends prefer Nikon, Sony or Olympus. It is a personal preference.
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by DAE_JA_VOO »

Synthesis wrote:I suppose buying cheap is buying expensive in the long run :wink:
You know, that's not ALWAYS true in photography. Like I said, if you started off with a CHEAP DSLR (seriously, get the cheapest one you can find) and slapped a 50mm lens on the front, you'd be likely to get some pretty amazing shots. As I said in my previous post, all those shots were taken with a D80 and a goog ol' 50mm f/1.8 lens. That's pretty much as cheap as it gets, and in my opinion, those are nice shots.

WRT buying second hand: I say go for it. Lenses are surprisingly durable, so those you need not worry too much about (I have a lens that was made in '76 that still works amazingly well). When it comes to the body, though, you need to find out how many shots the camera has taken. Camera shutters can only fire so many times before they fail. Top-End SLRs can go in the +-300 000 actuations mark, while the more entry level cameras have a shutter life of closer to about 100 000 - 150 000 actuations. Of course, you can replace the shutter, but on a cheap SLR, it's not worth it. So make sure you don't buy a camera that's taken too many shots.

Sometimes you pick up AMAZING deals second hand. I bought my current camera "Second Hand". It had literally only taken 46 photos, ever, when I bought it. And I got it for R2000 off the price of the same camera brand new. Same applies to one of my lenses. It came with that body, so had only taken 46 shots, and I got it for R9000 LESS than what I would have paid for it new. Saved R11 000 only essentially brand new gear because I bought "second hand" :) So look into it :)

EDIT: Here, perfect example. Here's a 50mm f/1.8D on sale for R900. That's exact lens I've been talking about.
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by Stuart »

DAE_JA_VOO wrote:If you DO go the SLR route, sell that 18-55mm lens. It's a piece of junk.
I'm hesitant to disagree with Ett here, but I think this is probably a bit of an overstatement. For an absolute beginner, the 18-55 will probably give you some room to experiment with all sorts. You will want to use something else eventually, but it's not a terrible starting point IMHO.

But that's just my personal opinion, and I'm a rank amateur compared to Ett.
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by DAE_JA_VOO »

Stuart wrote:
DAE_JA_VOO wrote:If you DO go the SLR route, sell that 18-55mm lens. It's a piece of junk.
I'm hesitant to disagree with Ett here, but I think this is probably a bit of an overstatement. For an absolute beginner, the 18-55 will probably give you some room to experiment with all sorts. You will want to use something else eventually, but it's not a terrible starting point IMHO.

But that's just my personal opinion, and I'm a rank amateur compared to Ett.
Well you're not WRONG - the lens is a good starting point, and it might point you in the direction you want to go, but there are a few things to consider about the lens:

1) It's slow. In other words - the widest aperture on that lens is 3.5, and that's only at 18mm. The moment you go up to 55mm, you're at 5.6, which is terrible IMO. So low light is a no-go with a lens like that.

2) It's not very sharp. Zoom lenses by nature aren't known for being exceptionally sharp, not even the R25 000 pro level ones. The kit lenses are especially guilty of a lack of sharpness.


So I guess "It's a piece of junk" is relative, but in my opinion, it's the sort of thing you should avoid. When I bought my D80, it came with an 18-135mm lens. Also a kit lens with that same aperture range (3.5-5.6). Since the day I bought my 50mm lens and took the 18-135mm off my camera, I've literally never used that kit lens again. In fact, I'm not even sure where it is right now *looks around*.

The nice thing about the kit lens is that it's diverse, because it's both wide (18mm) and relatively long (55mm). 55 isn't super long, but it's not wide, which is nice. So you can do wide stuff if you want, and if you want to do some portraits, you just zoom in to 55mm and off you go. But in terms of aperture and sharpness, it's really not ideal.

So it's really up to you. Honestly, I'd chuck the kit lens ASAP.
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by Anakha56 »

DAE_JA_VOO wrote:Since the day I bought my 50mm lens and took the 18-135mm off my camera, I've literally never used that kit lens again.
I am going to have to agree with this. Since I bought my 25mm (50mm equivalent) it is very rare that I use the other two lenses. I am sad to see DJV say that zoom lenses wont give the sharpness of the 25mm, was looking at getting a better zoom lens for when I go to places where there are skittish and dangerous wildlife. No way in hell am I going to try and get up close to a lion with a puny 25mm lens :lol:.
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by DAE_JA_VOO »

Hahaha.

Yeah, zoom lenses aren't as sharp as the primes. Here's why:

Zoom lenses have a wide range that they need to cover. A kit lens, for example, needs to be sharp enough at 18mm, and sharp enough at 55mm. It also needs to be sharp enough at 23mm, 41mm, etc etc etc. Zoom lenses need to be acceptably sharp at every focal length in their range.

Prime lesnes (lenses that can't zoom - fixed focal length lenses) only need to be sharp at ONE focal length, so they're CRAZY sharp at that focal length. So while a zoom lens might be sharp at a given focal length, the prime lens will be sharper.

Here's a great example. I once took a shot with Nikon's 24-70mm lens at 50mm, at f/2.8. Then I switched that lens with the 50mm f/1.8D I've been talking about. Took a shot at f/2.8, and the image from the 50mm was significantly sharper. It made the shot from the 24-70 look a little soft, to be honest.

24-70mm: R19 000
50mm: R1000-R1500.

Some photographers love the diversity of zoom lenses, though. And that diversity really is great. I personally don't own a single zoom lens (except that kit lens that I haven't touched in forever). In my camera bag, I've got a 24mm, a 50mm, and an 85mm. All Primes lenses. I'm a bit of a prime lens snob :P
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by Anakha56 »

Also have to add, I have had far more fun with the 25mm lens because now I have to physically move up close to the target :P to get a good shot. As DJV said everyone has different tastes for me personally I am now a prime person :(. I am sad because they are more expensive than the zoom lens.
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by Synthesis »

I've learned a lot about lenses, thanks guys. Firstly, after looking around at second hand and new, it seems every good deal comes with a 18-55mm lens. Without the lens it's still pretty much the same price. So it looks like I'll get a kit with the stock lens and a 50mm prime lens separate.

When I am out in the bush or around the house taking photo's I LOVE macro photography. I want to take a photo of a spider and see the detail in it's eyes. Then I also want to be able to take pictures of objects 50m or 100m away. How does the 50mmm prime lens work here? Obviously you can't zoom, so how does the focus work, for example wildlife at a distance if I'm only using a 50mm ? Any examples of a photo you have saying that photo was taken from about 70m away ?
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

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DAE_JA_VOO wrote:Some photographers love the diversity of zoom lenses, though. And that diversity really is great. I personally don't own a single zoom lens (except that kit lens that I haven't touched in forever). In my camera bag, I've got a 24mm, a 50mm, and an 85mm. All Primes lenses. I'm a bit of a prime lens snob :P
Did you use a prime lens for our family shoot?
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by Tribble »

I have an 18-200mm lens. This is my lens of choice as I need to zoom in. I agree it is not as crisp but I am happy to make that sacrifice for being able to do candid shots without having to get up close.

It is a choice you make Synth. I do not use my fixed lenses. I find them very restrictive. But then that is just me. I like to be flexible and my lenses must too. I also have a macro lens that is a zoom lens.
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by DAE_JA_VOO »

Synthesis wrote:When I am out in the bush or around the house taking photo's I LOVE macro photography. I want to take a photo of a spider and see the detail in it's eyes. Then I also want to be able to take pictures of objects 50m or 100m away. How does the 50mmm prime lens work here? Obviously you can't zoom, so how does the focus work, for example wildlife at a distance if I'm only using a 50mm ? Any examples of a photo you have saying that photo was taken from about 70m away ?
Yeah, that's the kind of thing you need to plan for. If you want to shoot something that's 70m away, you definitely want a longer lens. 200-300mm at the very least. If you want to shoot macro, with the detail in the spider's eyes and all that good stuff, you need a macro lens. There's no "One size fits all" lens.

A 50mm lens, because it can't zoom, is something that'll teach you to walk. With prime lenses, if you need to get closer, you move your feet and walk closer. Obviously that's not idea when your subject is a lion. lol.

Using a 50mm for wildlife is a terrible idea. Unless you're close up, you won't see anything.

So, if you want to do macro AND wildlife, you'll need separate lenses for that. There is a 105mm Macro lens, which is relatively long, but not enough for wildlife. You could get your macro stuff with it. The lens costs about 10K, though.So yeah, more than one lens.

Stuart wrote:
DAE_JA_VOO wrote:Some photographers love the diversity of zoom lenses, though. And that diversity really is great. I personally don't own a single zoom lens (except that kit lens that I haven't touched in forever). In my camera bag, I've got a 24mm, a 50mm, and an 85mm. All Primes lenses. I'm a bit of a prime lens snob :P
Did you use a prime lens for our family shoot?
Absolutely :) The only time I DON'T use a prime lens is when I shoot a wedding, and the only reason I use a zoom lens at weddings is because I don't have the time at a wedding to be changing between my prime lenses. And because I don't own zoom lenses of my own (and refuse to buy one), I rent one for weddings.
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by Stuart »

As a matter of interest, what is your zoom lens of choice for weddings?
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by DAE_JA_VOO »

Stuart wrote:As a matter of interest, what is your zoom lens of choice for weddings?
Nikon's 24-70 f/2.8. It's nice and wide at 24mm, it's just long enough at 70mm, and it's f/2.8 anywhere in that range. It's pretty much the best zoom lens when it comes to being both long enough and wide enough. Honestly, though, even though it's the best zoom lens in that range, I hate it. F/2.8 is far too slow for my liking, and as I've said, it's just not as sharp as I want it to be. The AF is crazy fast, though.

At weddings, I usually use that, an 85mm f/1.4, and sometimes I use a 50mm f/1.4.

Honestly I avoid using the 24-70 as much as I can because I hate it, so I try to shoot with the 50 and the 85 as much as I can. Those two lenses are absolutely incredible, particularly the 85. But sometimes you just have to have the diversity that the 24-70 gives, so then I use it.
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by Stuart »

I've noticed lens hoods on your camera. Comments on hoods? How important do you consider a hood for an outdoor shoot? Do you use one indoors at all?
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by DAE_JA_VOO »

Stuart wrote:I've noticed lens hoods on your camera. Comments on hoods? How important do you consider a hood for an outdoor shoot? Do you use one indoors at all?
As far as I'm concerned, the only reason a hood should ever come off is when you need to make your lens smaller to fit in a bag or something.

Lens hoods do 2 things:

1) They help prevent lens flare. When the sun (or any light source) directly hits the front element of your lens, you get flare. Flare causes a change in colour, as well as a dramatic drop in contrast. Generally, not ideal. It can be used creatively, though :) This is the reason a lens hood exists.

2) Lens hoods protect the front of your lens. Some people buy a UV filter for the front of their lenses, but I don't believe in those, unless the filter costs a few grand. Cheap UV filters cause a drop in image quality, sharpness, and can even have a slight colour cast. I've seen this myself. Think about it: You buy a R20 000 lens from Nikon/Canon that's had every single element of glass INCREDIBLY engineered, and slap a R100 filter on the front. Those filters aren't worth the drop in quality. So for shooters that don't use filters, their lenses are at risk because if you bump that element, you're in trouble. Slap on the lens hood and your lens has a LOT more protection. My lens hoods never come off my lenses, even if it's night time.
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by Anakha56 »

Nice answer... Honestly I have never shot with the hood on. Could never see the reason why I needed it... :oops: Will play around this Sunday to see the results :D.
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by Stuart »

^^ Me too. I need to find me some hoods.
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by Anakha56 »

All my lenses came with hoods so I am in the clear for that. Need to buy a proper camera bag now was thinking this guy: http://www.lowepro.com/slingshot at least that way I will be able to store lenses and camera without a hassle. Current bag only gets me lenses, no space for the hoods...

*edit*

Sorry Syn for stealing your thread... :P Maybe this should be renamed into something more general but constructive... Who's with me? :P
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Re: Help choose a camera please?

Post by Synthesis »

Heya, no ways man. Thread hasn't been hijacked at all. I'm learning a lot to influence buying the right camera. Definitely getting the answers I want. Thanks everyone. Yep, rename the thread to something more general about camera faq or whatever.

The only place I'm between is a prime lens and a zoom lens. I agree and understand a prime lens is better quality and in your case necessary but I tend to agree with Tribble on the diversity. My eyes aren't trained like yours to notice the difference if you put 2 photo's next to each other. I'm not trying to win awards or get more customers. It's for myself. I will certainly get a 50mm prime lens but I know in my case I will be opposite and hardly use it, except for portraiture (I even learned a new word) of a kids halloween costume or school concert dress a few times a year.
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