Sharepoint & Alternatives

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Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by Anakha56 »

So RRF made a lovely rant in the Spam thread about his hate for all things Sharepoint. In the Windows 8 thread jamin and RRF are arguing about Sharepoint and jamin has asked what is better than Sharepoint which has been ignored.

Purpose of this thread? Lets discuss the merits of Sharepoint and if there are alternatives to it discuss them as well. I know this will benefit me because we have put our budget for 2012 for a huge Sharepoint build.

So discuss! :)
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by RuadRauFlessa »

So Anakha my question remains... do you have an ERP system currently in use by your financial department and what is it?

Also I did answer jamin's question although it might not have been the answer he was looking for.
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by Anakha56 »

Oh was that directed at me? :lol: See this is why I wanted a separate thread... :lol:

AFAIK We dont have a ERP system. Never heard of it before...
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by hamin_aus »

Nice thread...

I've looked after some big SP installations on the DB side... NPC cement has one that will probably be approaching 200GB now
Quite a few challenges in supporting that - I'll write a book one day :D

I've seen a few CMS systems that could challenge SP. Funnily enough I saw a decent one using .NetNuke
But when it comes to ease of integration into a Windows environment nothing I've seen thus far beats SP

But like Annie, I'm keen to hear about any contenders
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by hamin_aus »

We veered off topic really quickly by bringing up ERP systems in a SharePoint thread :P

RuadRauFlessa wrote:Also I did answer jamin's question
Awwwww... baby's first troll :P
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by RuadRauFlessa »

Ok so a quick idea regarding ERP is in order...

First of examples of this will be something like Accpac or SAP.
You might want to take a read over here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterprise ... e_planning

Employing a decent ERP for a mid to large company is a good practice and in the long run will cost you less since most of them has the capabilities for a rollout of a more than decent Intranet with document management together with propper workflow and integration with third party applications. SAP and ACCPAC for instance has CRM (Customer Relationship Management) modules whereby you can more easily manage your customers and also get the ease of collaboration that you would have expected to receive from SharePoint.

And no jamin I think bringing ERP systems to a SP thread is valid since most of them will offer what SP can
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by Anakha56 »

TBH I have no idea what a ERP system is. Had to Google it to get a better understanding. :lol:

We were looking at a MOSS system customized by a group from DiData. Website is below:

http://www.3fifteen.co.za/Pages/HomePage.aspx

@ Ruad We have SAP Business 1...
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by hamin_aus »

RuadRauFlessa wrote: I think bringing ERP systems to a SP thread is valid since most of them will offer what SP can
As an added bonus.... MAYBE....

Would you really implement SAP just for it's collaborative functionality :?:
I'm pretty sure most ERP's go on the market for many times the cost of a SharePoint implementation
I'm certain even the cost of adding a SharePoint-like module into a SAP, ACCPAC or Sage build will cost more than a standalone SP implementation... remembering how much ERP devs earn vs how much you pay .Net devs
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by RuadRauFlessa »

Ok lets look at this realistically since you want to go that route.... Why oh Why do you want to give users a website where they can waste their working time chatting with each other. It is counter productive.

If you want it for the workflow and document management then so be it... but collaboration... seriously... if they want to chat give them e-mail.

Yes a SAP or ACCPAC consultant is expensive but then again all companies need financial sytems that incorporates business processes, workflow, automation of certain tasks, stock and logistics, and..., and..., and... I can go on as to what a company needs to be efficiently run but you will say it is off topic... I say it is not since if you have it flaunt it. If you have ACCPAC the amount of time you need to spend to get that ACCPAC CRM working 100% or getting SAP's version running and integrated into your other systems will take a lot less time than getting the same thing running on SP.

Also I don't see the point of having SP and SAP Business 1 for instance if they are not integrated in terms of workflow. Start up a consighnment stock process on SP and have it integrat with SAP to check what stock levels should be in a wharehouse, then do a stocktake against that and automatically have requisitions raised, approved and purchase orders sent out without the need to actually having any financial person touch the financial system. That is what empowerment is. I have yet to see a SP system that can give you that. And untill I do I will not advise anyone to go that route. I won't be paying Microsoft through my neck for a piece of software that is absolutely horrible to maintain and still have it decrease employee productivity.

And no I won't implement SAP just for collaboration, I would however implement SAP for its own strengths: Stability, Customization, Integration, ands... ands... I would with it use whatever modules it has to make life easier and to get a fully integrateable intranet up and running.
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by Anakha56 »

/side note downloading a open source ERP system to look at.

@ Ruad is it possible to integrate SP and SAP Business 1 to work together? Busy reading up on different ERP systems now...
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by hamin_aus »

RuadRauFlessa wrote:Ok lets look at this realistically since you want to go that route.... Why oh Why do you want to give users a website where they can waste their working time chatting with each other. It is counter productive.

If you want it for the workflow and document management then so be it... but collaboration... seriously... if they want to chat give them e-mail.
You clearly misunderstand what collaboration means in the context of SharePoint...
It means Sharing documents, reports, project time-lines, announcements and events and doing this all with the ability to leverage active directories permissions so that only the people who really need to see stuff do. it sounds like I'm making a sales pitch and I don't mean to - that's just what it is

if people want to chat they have office communicator and Lync - both of those infinitely better than SP, and whether or not they are a waste of time is debatable. the fact that they are so widely used suggest bushinesses consider them worthwhile.
RuadRauFlessa wrote:Yes a SAP or ACCPAC consultant is expensive but then again all companies need financial sytems that incorporates business processes, workflow, automation of certain tasks, stock and logistics, and..., and..., and... I can go on as to what a company needs to be efficiently run but you will say it is off topic... I say it is not since if you have it flaunt it. If you have ACCPAC the amount of time you need to spend to get that ACCPAC CRM working 100% or getting SAP's version running and integrated into your other systems will take a lot less time than getting the same thing running on SP.
I cant argue that as I have not worked with an ACCPAC or SAP CRM
But if you do the maths, paying a SAP dev for one week of work or paying a .Net dev for a months work probably still works out in favour of the .Net dev.
The nice thing about SP is it's not mission critical like an ERP system, who cares if it takes longer to implement. It is cheaper in the short term and the long term to run, and it can be administered by anybody with even an iota of Windows sysadmin skills.
RuadRauFlessa wrote:Also I don't see the point of having SP and SAP Business 1 for instance if they are not integrated in terms of workflow. Start up a consighnment stock process on SP and have it integrat with SAP to check what stock levels should be in a wharehouse, then do a stocktake against that and automatically have requisitions raised, approved and purchase orders sent out without the need to actually having any financial person touch the financial system. That is what empowerment is. I have yet to see a SP system that can give you that. And untill I do I will not advise anyone to go that route. I won't be paying Microsoft through my neck for a piece of software that is absolutely horrible to maintain and still have it decrease employee productivity.
So if we want to share and manage documents and information about manufacturing, HR, OHASA etc we should put it all into the financial ERP system? That sounds like a winning formula.

If you are using SP for any sort of transaction processing you are doing it so wrong you might as well give up and go home.
It wasn't designed to automate business processes. it was designed to share information
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by Anakha56 »

jamin_za wrote: It means Sharing documents, reports, project time-lines, announcements and events and doing this all with the ability to leverage active directories permissions so that only the people who really need to see stuff do.
This is exactly what we are wanting it for.
jamin_za wrote: and it can be administered by anybody with even an iota of Windows sysadmin skills.
+1 Another reason why we are looking at Sharepoint

Still downloading a couple of ERP systems to play with because I do see a use for them in our environment.
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by RuadRauFlessa »

Anakha56 wrote:/side note downloading a open source ERP system to look at.

@ Ruad is it possible to integrate SP and SAP Business 1 to work together? Busy reading up on different ERP systems now...
It is but only in terms of pulling data from SAP to display in SP... This can be done through SAP DUET. If you want to access the actual transactions then you will need a third party tool: http://www.winshuttle.com/Products/Winshuttle-Server Point is doing this will cost you the price of SP and the third party tool with some more dev time on Winshuttle and SAP to get it set up properly to have all of your transactions mapped, tested and working.
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by hamin_aus »

RuadRauFlessa wrote:
Anakha56 wrote:/side note downloading a open source ERP system to look at.

@ Ruad is it possible to integrate SP and SAP Business 1 to work together? Busy reading up on different ERP systems now...
It is but only in terms of pulling data from SAP to display in SP...
Thats all you really should be using SP to do

Annie do you guys have SAP :?:
RuadRauFlessa wrote:If you want to access the actual transactions
You should never want to do this with SP.
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by RuadRauFlessa »

jamin_za wrote:You clearly misunderstand what collaboration means in the context of SharePoint...
It means Sharing documents, reports, project time-lines, announcements and events and doing this all with the ability to leverage active directories permissions so that only the people who really need to see stuff do. it sounds like I'm making a sales pitch and I don't mean to - that's just what it is
:lol: that does sound like a sales pitch... actually it is exactly the same words a sales rep said in one of our meetings with them.

My point is just that every company that is worth its salt should have a properly implemented ERP. And then every ERP has customer management, project planning, document management, human resource management, supply chain management... and the list goes on... So why would I need SP if the ERP system that you so aptly named as a critical system already has all the functionality that I need. SP gives me nothing that SAP or ACCPAC can not provide... Even AD integration and pulling security rights from there.
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by RuadRauFlessa »

jamin_za wrote:
RuadRauFlessa wrote:
Anakha56 wrote:/side note downloading a open source ERP system to look at.

@ Ruad is it possible to integrate SP and SAP Business 1 to work together? Busy reading up on different ERP systems now...
It is but only in terms of pulling data from SAP to display in SP...
Thats all you really should be using SP to do
RuadRauFlessa wrote:If you want to access the actual transactions
You should never want to do this with SP.[/quote]
Then why would I want it? If I can't use it to make people lives easer and by streamlining processes... then what is the use ?
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by hamin_aus »

RuadRauFlessa wrote: :lol: that does sound like a sales pitch... actually it is exactly the same words a sales rep said in one of our meetings with them.
:lol: I have sat in the same sales pitch several times, so maybe I'm channelling an M$ sales rep in these posts...
RuadRauFlessa wrote:My point is just that every company that is worth its salt should have a properly implemented ERP.
I Agree!
RuadRauFlessa wrote:And then every ERP has customer management, project planning, document management, human resource management, supply chain management... and the list goes on...
Hmmmmm...
Tradionally I would agree, and if you have the money to customise your ERP for this then go for it.
But the reason SP is as successful as it has been is that most companies end up spending far more than they planned on their ERP system just to get it to do their core business functions. Adding what SP can do is often too rich for their blood.
SP can handle these peripheral tasks quite nicely and can be implemented and maintained on the cheap.
it also has the bonus of being used by departments that have nothing to do with SAP, like maintenance, security and janitorial staff...
Can you honestly justify using SAP to host the roster for which cleaner is responsible for cleaning the downstairs toilet today :P
RuadRauFlessa wrote:If I can't use it to make people lives easer and by streamlining processes...
Well you cant and you shouldn't.
SP wasn't designed for what you seem to think it should do.
It's called SharePoint. It's used to share stuff.
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by RuadRauFlessa »

So on that bombshell... jamin... we have reached a consensus I think for the first time in like... forever.

We can agree that we expect different things and have different requirements. And our different ideas and requirements tends to push our minds to our conclusions. You don't want anything more than to simply show information... I want to do something with that information because information for me is useless unless you do something with it.

On the other hand I have seen people try an fail at maintaining SP... we have SP running with a full time person just for maintaining it. I have to say we are a rather large company that has recently been bout out by an even larger conglomerate. We are sitting with over 6000 employees and I can promise you that I can walk to them and about 90% of them won't even know that we have a SP site running. BTW the SP site was taken over by our parent company when the bout out another smaller company with about 10 employees who had the server up and running already.
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by Anakha56 »

jamin_za wrote: Annie do you guys have SAP :?:
Only SAP Business 1, for parts flowing into the company we use a POS (S is not sale ;) ) called SPARC for all our order placing with suppliers while SAP Business 1 just makes the purchasing orders and so on. As for Inventory SPARC is meant to do that but its not that great... :/
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by RuadRauFlessa »

Anakha exactly my point... Why have all of these disjointed systems if you can have all of it in one.
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by hamin_aus »

RuadRauFlessa wrote:I have seen people try an fail at maintaining SP... we have SP running with a full time person just for maintaining it.
Probably because you are doing too much with it...
If all you were doing was importing, exporting and sharing information maintenance would be limited to the odd permissions changes and the occasional fixing of user errors (oops deleted my super-important document because I'm functionally retarded)

Even the back-end is low maintenance. SP actually handles it's own indexes and stats and even does it's own table and schema-level changes to compliment front-end dev work. All you basically have to do behind the scenes is make sure it is backed up.
RuadRauFlessa wrote:We are sitting with over 6000 employees and I can promise you that I can walk to them and about 90% of them won't even know that we have a SP site running.
That is more common than you would think, sadly.
Part of what separated a successful SP implementation from a failed one is the buy-in from employees.
You need to examine how each department stores and shares info and then show them how SP can make this easier...
Again, I'm sounding like a salesman and I hate that... so I'll stop :D

It's always fun discussing things with you - even if we have never reached a consensus on any topic, I find your ideas intriguing and would subscribe to your newsletter :P
Anakha56 wrote:Only SAP Business 1
Well then RRF schooled you on DUET, so this wasn't a wasted excercise!
Maybe investigate the cost of adding additional SAP modules vs a SharePoint implementation...
I'll bet SP comes in cheaper by miles tho
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by Anakha56 »

It was not a wasted exercise at all I loved following the debate. I have a couple of options to investigate but at the end of the day Sharepoint does look like our way forward but if I can get a winning inventory system running that will be the selling point.

/Next time you two decide to debate on something that has no topic, please create a topic? Also have to wonder what the puppy will have to say...
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by RuadRauFlessa »

Well if they see the benefit of having a portal fully integrated into every back end system then they will go for a full ERP... which I doubt because financial managers hates change even more than giving out money. So they will probably still go for SP and then drop the functionality.
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

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@RRF are you using your SP with BLOB and filestreaming?

I have learnt so much today. Did not know how filegroups in SQL worked and how you could spread data over different drives (yes I am that much of a noob). Learning about BLOBs and filestreaming now - very interesting stuff. You really have to know a lot about everything - I do not know enough. Don't think I will be doing the exam on Friday.
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Re: Sharepoint & Alternatives

Post by hamin_aus »

Don't feel bad, Tribs - file groups, partitioning, and even file streaming is more DBA than developer domain...
They go very in-depth with SQL Server stuff on your SP course tho... I'm impressed.
If they do a chapter on maintenance plans we might make a decent DBA out of you :P
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